Rockwell patch for Windows XP?

>>Actually, I think that the thieves will soon beat the [activation]
>>system (if they have not already done so). Much as gun control
>>(and other) laws are obeyed by people who are law abiding and are
>>ignored by criminals...

Why bother trying if the thieves are just going to break it anyway. I'll just leave the keys in my truck... the thieves are going to steal it anyway. And I think I'll just leave my house unlocked... The burglars are just going to break in and steal all my stuff anyway.

>>Just out of curiousity, did you ever pay the registration fee to
>>use Winzip? I did.

I purchase all the software I use or develop with/for, including WinZip, Windows, Office, and the MSDN Universal library. I have valid licenses for each computer at work and at home for all software installed on it.

If you noticed, WinZip uses a less complicated (and less secure) method of product activation. When you register with them, they give you an activation code based on your name. Most shareware that I have seen implements similar protection schemes. The difference, being they don't look at the hardware in your computer to prevent using the activation code on multiple computers.

>>I have no problem with paying for software that I want to use.
>>Free is nice, but programmers got to eat too.

If you want to send food directly maybe we can work something out but I prefer you just pay cash for stuff I write. (programmers need houses and
cars too) :)

>>My main gripe is what the heck do I tell people when we ship
>>something to rural China?

Microsoft has regional and, in some locations, local customer service centers to process activation requests. Telephone access numbers to these customer service centers are toll-free where available. Some countries can only be serviced with local toll numbers due to their telephony infrastructure or other issues. For very few countries, users will need to contact Microsoft by calling collect. Most customer service centers are open 24 hours per day.

>>There just is no Internet or telephone to MS tech support in
>>many cases.

Product activation is not be required for licenses acquired through Microsoft's volume licensing programs such as Open License or Select
License. I suggest you look into these programs.
( "http://www.microsoft.com/licensing/":http://www.microsoft.com/licensing/ ) A purchase for as few as 5 licenses can qualify for volume pricing through the open license program.

Jeff Dean
[email protected]
 
M

Michael Brown

>Some customers will be allowed to buy a version of XP which does not have
>product activation. I believe that these customers are limited to very
large
>companies which can negotiate directly with Microsoft. If you are a small
>customer, you have to use the product activation version. I am rather
curious
>as to why a version without product activation was necessary if this
feature
>is not expected to be a problem.


You may purchase as few as 5 licenses in order to get a Volume License version of XP. Contact a Microsoft dealer like CDW "http://www.cdw.com":http://www.cdw.com
"http://www.cdw.com/":http://www.cdw.com/ and they can help.

You can also call MS direct. There is also a small discount, like 5% on purchasing like this.

I believe activation is a pain, that is why it is worth getting the VLK version.


Michael Brown, MCSE
LESSCO / Advanced Solutions Group
Ph. (706) 278-0272
Fx. (770) 234-5782
 
C

Curt Wuollet

Hi Ranjan

Ranjan Acharya wrote:
>
> Unfortunately we were all lulled to sleep by the long life cycle of Windows
> NT. Windows 2000 was here yesterday and is rapidly disappearing. It takes
> a long time to get all the applications certified for any vendor be it
> Siemens, Rockwell or Schneider et cetera. From experience, it seems that
> all software gets trapped by kernel revisions eventually.
>
> Our policy right now (we do all flavours of PLC) is to not use XP at all.
> We don't buy the programming stations / laptops if they only support XP.
> Having played with XP and Office XP, I don't really understand the rush to
> upgrade to it. A lot of flash over basically the same NT kernel.
>
> That does not help you if you are stuck for another reason in the XP world.
>
> Perhaps someone could write a Linux version of the A-B programming toolset
> to add some choice?

I'll start right away if you'll get me the information and pay my legal costs :^).

>
> We will start to switch to XP next year or maybe the third quarter of this
> year and only by using licences with new machines. We are not registering
> existing licences with the new fee programme that Microsoft just started. A
> desperate ploy to get revenue. The "upgrades" will only come faster to
> newer and newer operating systems and the old ones will vanish with the "oh,
> if you register with us and pay us X dollars or X Euros per seat each year
> then you don't have to worry". I called an automation vendor on this once
> and he said "oh, that's just the way of the world now, tell your customers
> the same thing, I am sure they will understand". Yes I can just imagine it,
> "I know the machine works perfectly, but you bought it in 2002 and it is
> 2003 now, you have to upgrade the control engine to the 2003 model in order
> for us to support it, we cannot get the 2002 stuff to work anymore".
>
> R


I won't comment on the other stuff, that's between MS and you.

Regards

cww
 
M

Michael Griffin

Bob Peterson wrote:

<clip>
> OK. So I mispoke and called it registration instead of Product
> activation. I really do not care what they call it.
<clip>

Don't feel bad. I suspect that the confusion between "registration" and "activation" is deliberate policy by Microsoft. They want you to "register" so they can give this information to their marketting department. This isn't much different from the "warranty cards" which come with kitchen appliances. You don't have to fill those out either, but the manufacturer would like to make you think you do.

> Many of my systems go overseas where there just is no internet access
> and calling up MS to get some secret code so a piece of equipment will
> work is not all that easy either. =A0What happens when my PC shipped
> over to rural China fails, the software has to be reinstalled and there
> is no easy way to get in touch with MS so it can be reauthorized?
<clip>

I suspect that your customers will simply install "Windows XP Pirate Edition" for less than the cost of a phone call to you. Pirate copies of the final release version of Windows XP (without the activation feature) were available in China a week or more before the product was released in the United States. I suspect that your more serious problems will arise in countries where software piracy is much less common. This doesn't make your concerns any less valid though.


> You mention that you can replace upto 8 pieces of hardware before it
> cries foul. Does this include things like keyboards, mice, printers?
> Or does this count exclude peripherals? What happens if you have to
> replace a motherboard? I have been told you are just dead in that case
> if you have an OEM version, which is how this is typically sold. What
> if my Dell motherboard dies? Can I replace it with an off the shelve
> motherboard of non-Dell origin?

To give a fairly typical example of something which is common in industrial applications, but rare in office installations, image a computerised test system. There are test system OEMs which produce hundreds of identical systems. The better ones will use swappable hard drives.

The customer will have a spare drive on the shelf which they can swap into a system in the event the original hard drive fails or becomes corrupted. The OEM's service personnel will carry a spare hard drive with them on a service call so they can swap in a software set they know is good. In addition, software upgrades are handled by installing the new software into an off-line computer and swapping the hard drive into the tester since the actual test system is not available long enough (the line can't shut down long enough) to use it as an installation system.

So we have a situation where swapping the hard drive between machines is a normal and expected activity. The question becomes whether
the activation feature of WIndows XP can distinguish between being installed in several "identical" machines.

I say "identical", but they aren't really identical. Various bits of hardware will have different serial numbers or version information which the activation system looks at. Everything may be fine (or at least close enough) from a software point of view, but the activation system has noticed that it is in a completely different machine. This may happen a number of times, and leaving the difficulty of arranging re-activation aside, I believe there is a limit to the number of re-activations you are allowed.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to what a customer or OEM is supposed to do in the above scenario? I haven't seen this paritcular issue being addressed anywhere yet.

> As far as the one installation thing, I think most everyone knows that
> stealing software (or anything else for that matter) is just plain
> wrong. Its no different than stealing a car. But the fact is that
> someone is going to figure out how to beat this system (as every copy
> protection scheme to date has been beaten - this one has probably been
> beaten already as well).

The system has already been beaten, as I have mentioned above. There are pirate versions based on the "corporate" version of Windows XP, which doesn't use product activation. It is also claimed that some people have "cracked" or bypassed the activation system, as I understand there are also pirate versions available which are *not* based on the corporate version but which still don't require product activation.

I expect the product activation system will change over time (it has already supposedly changed at least once). Most copy protection systems have to change continuously to keep ahead of the hackers and I don't expect Windows XP to be any different in this respect.

If any of your long range plans depend upon on the ability of the product activation system to tolerate a certain amount of change, you had better be basing them on solid detailed specifications from Microsoft. "Past experience" or "testing" will be worthless since Microsoft could (and most likely will) change the way product activation works in ways which render your testing invalid.

The concept of basing a copy protection system on analysing the hardware configuration of a particular computer isn't a new idea. It was used in certain copy protection schemes in the past without much success. It could be though that the more modern computer hardware available today will provide more usable information than was present in previous attempts.

> Quite frankly, what I suspect MS is moving towards is renting software
> including Operating systems for some limited period of time, rather then
> what amounts to an unlimited time period now. Thats the only logical
> reason that they would do this.
<clip>

I don't know why you would call this a suspicion. I was under the impression that they have stated that this was their eventual goal. Before you start fulminating about this though, I should point out that the IT managers of certain of their large multinational customers are in favour of this as well. I have read that these customers believe there are certain advantages to this when you are managing large systems with many thousands of software licenses used in typical office applications. In this sense, Microsoft is listening to their customers, or at least the ones who are large enough for them to notice.

Since this is the "automation list" and not the "high finance list", I won't try to analyse whether they are correct or not. The question which concerns me is whether this makes sense for automation applications. In my own applications, I would have to say "no".



--
************************
Michael Griffin
London, Ont. Canada
************************
 
Bob;

Sorry, I hear this "Registration/Activation" argument all the time, and am prompted to clear up misunderstandings where I can.

I sympathize with your "rural China" example. I have clients in the rural Arctic who may also experience problems with PA. I suggest you contact MS directly and see what they can do to alleviate the concerns of you and your clients.

As far as the piece count goes, rather than me go on and on about PA, I suggest everyone read this MS article:
"http://www.microsoft.com/technet/tr...net/prodtechnol/winxppro/evaluate/xpactiv.asp":http://www.microsoft.com/technet/tr...net/prodtechnol/winxppro/evaluate/xpactiv.asp
OEM versions are a different problem altogether. To quote MS "At each login, Windows XP checks to see that it is running on the same or similar hardware that it was activated on. If it detects that the hardware is "substantially different", reactivation is required. This check is performed after the SLP BIOS check discussed above, if the SLP BIOS check fails. This means that if your PC is pre-activated in the factory using the SLP pre-activation method, all the components in the PC could be swapped, including the motherboard, so long as the replacement motherboard was genuine and from the OEM with the proper BIOS. As noted above, installations of Windows XP made using volume licensing media and volume license product keys (VLKs) will not have any hardware component checking."

As far as "renting software" is concerned, Microsoft is approaching that idea now. Under the new "Open Business" option of the MS "Open License 6.0" program it is possible for firms to enter into a "Software Assurance" program with as little as 5 copies of software. Software Assurance costs 29% (for apps, 25% for servers) of the initial purchase price each year, lasts two years, and guarantees that you'll receive the most recent version of all Microsoft products. Sounds like a stab at "software rental" to me. You purchase the initial unit(s), pay a yearly maintenance fee, and they'll send you all the latest stuff.


Mark Hill
 
The appended note from Jay prompted me to think, does RSLogic load other programs ? If so, each of these programs must also be told which OS to run under, (using XP's Compatibility Tool).

For those interested in reviewing the Compatibility Mode, I'd suggest reading the following MS articles:

A good discussion on Application Compatibility:
"http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/techinfo/planning/appcompat/default.asp";http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/techinfo/planning/appcompat/default.asp

An application called QFixAPP that will discover why your program doesn't run:
"http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/techinfo/administration/qfixapp/default.asp":http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/techinfo/administration/qfixapp/default.asp

How to run Legacy Applications under Windows XP:
"http://www.microsoft.com/WindowsXP/pro/techinfo/administration/legacyapps/default.asp":http://www.microsoft.com/WindowsXP/pro/techinfo/administration/legacyapps/default.asp

Mark Hill
 
Thanks Ken

I'm used to "flame fests" when Windows XP gets mentioned in public forums.
Most non-Windows users would rather toss lighted spears rather than try to educate themselves.

I hope your explanation sorts out this "issue" for all RSLogix users !!

Mark Hill
 
B

Bob Peterson

> >>Actually, I think that the thieves will soon beat the [activation]
> >>system (if they have not already done so). Much as gun control
> >>(and other) laws are obeyed by people who are law abiding and are
> >>ignored by criminals...
>
> Why bother trying if the thieves are just going to break it anyway. I'll
> just leave the keys in my truck... the thieves are going to steal it
> anyway. And I think I'll just leave my house unlocked... The burglars
> are just going to break in and steal all my stuff anyway.

The analogy you make is seriously flawed. Locking your house or car does provide you with a much higher degree of security from vermin. MS has gained almost nothing in that respect, since versions w/o the PA "feature" are already readily available to those who wish to steal (and actually came from MS that way). Those who wish to steal MS software can do continue to do so
with impunity, while those who do not are inconvenienced. At least locking my door inconveniences both myself and discourages the thieves.

BTW-I do not dispute that MS has the right to sell its software in any way it so chooses. My objection revolves around the inconvenience it brings me, and the real possibility that in at least a technical way I may not be able to abide by the contract with the end user.

>> >My main gripe is what the heck do I tell people when we ship
> >>something to rural China?
> Microsoft has regional and, in some locations, local customer service
> centers to process activation requests. Telephone access numbers to
> these customer service centers are toll-free where available. Some
> countries can only be serviced with local toll numbers due to their
> telephony infrastructure or other issues. For very few countries, users
> will need to contact Microsoft by calling collect. Most customer service> centers are open 24 hours per day.

Did you know its called plagerism when you copy something verbatim w/o crediting the source?

Obviously you have not been to rural China lately. Calling anywhere from some of these places is not a trivial exercise.

> >>There just is no Internet or telephone to MS tech support in
> >>many cases.
> Product activation is not be required for licenses acquired through
> Microsoft's volume licensing programs such as Open License or Select
> License. I suggest you look into these programs.
> (http://www.microsoft.com/licensing/) A purchase for as few as 5
> licenses can qualify for volume pricing through the open license
> program.

So I should buy 5 licenses for my one computer going to China to avoid the PA trap? And instead of buying my computer from Dell with the O/S preinstalled, you are suggesting that I pay Dell extra to take it off? Or uninstall it and reinstall it from an off the shelf package from Compusa?

And BTW, as far as I can tell from the FAQ at the MS web site, you cannot transfer one of these volume licenses bought in such a way to a third party (like to the end user in my case), unless you have a reseller license.

Bob Peterson
 
C

Curt Wuollet

Why treat all your customers as thieves while you are extorting upgrade dollars from them?

Regards

cww
 
M

Michael Griffin

The "volume license" is just what is generically referred to as the "corporate version". There are a number of variations on this, tailored for different markets. The 5 license version you are referring to is what Microsoft calls the "Open License" (I don't know what the "open" refers to here). There is by the way some sort of complicated "point system" involved, so I don't know if the "5 licenses" necessarily translates into 5 actual licenses.
For the purposes of what we are discussing, the corporate version is even
more restrictive than the activation version, provided you actually intend to obey the relevant laws and license agreements. This version is only for use within a single company. You are not allowed to build systems which use your corporate license and then sell them to your customers.
In addition, the corporate version doesn't really get rid of the activation issue, as you still have to type in the serial number which comes with the installation CD. You are supposed to keep this serial number under close control, which means you can't simply tell everyone what it is so that they can re-install it themselves.

The corporate version solves certain problems faced by IT managers in medium to large companies. I can also see where it may be useful in situations where a customer supplies the computer, and a contractor supplies programming services (e.g. possibly some MMI system projects).
I don't however see how it applies to the situation I was discussing, which is automated test systems. In this case the test equipment OEM is supplying the complete system. You can also have situations where after a service call or software upgrade the OEM ends up with the customer's original hard drive (and copy of Windows XP), while the customer ends up with the OEM's drive. There are too many things which can go wrong if you are trying to keep the licenses straight.


--
************************
Michael Griffin
London, Ont. Canada
************************
 
R

Ranjan Acharya

With regards to Microsoft's Software Assurance programme touted by Mark Hill.

To an honest end user such as myself this programme appears to be nothing but a cynical attempt to get more money from me. Statements such as "you will be assured of the latest version of the software" are meaningless given Microsoft's horrible record on buggy insecure new releases. Also since my automation tools take a year or more to catch up to the Windows release (express train?) this does not really help me.

Paying through my nose each year 29% of the cost for each machine is quite simply ridiculous. When I buy the licence for the software it should be a one-time payment with no hassles. I should also be assured of some reasonable longevity for the product. This licence should include access to fee-based support plus free fixes for flaws (hopefully with this new "security first" thing in Redmond there will be no security holes - cannot break it, cannot break in or something like that I suppose from a little company a couple of kilometres (or so) down the coast.

If these things cannot be done, then it is time for the purveyors of automation tools to think about an alternative OS. If the IS types at the
big companies like forking over a huge sum of money each year for all the corporate systems then that is fine. For automation systems perhaps it is time to try something new. The "Great Leap Forward" we all took to the
"Cultural Revolution" of NT a few years ago appears to be a "Long March" to a gulag in Siberia.

R
 
M
This whole discussion misses the point of down time.

I can currently offer my customers a 'ghosted' or 'drive imaged' back up of their system as it was commissioned. This system can generally be restored within twenty minutes to an hour to a fully working system once the hardware problems have been sorted out.

This avenue is not likely to be open to users of XP. Some systems take as much as a day to restore from scratch.

At anything upto £100,000 per hour for down time on a system I can predict quite a few 'fitness for purpose' disputes.

Mind you doesn't the EVIL DMCA make Ghost and Drive Image illegal in the US.
 
Wasn't it always effectively rental? Hardware as well?

The endless spiral of cheaper, more capable (but not always compatible) hardware, with software filling it up almost instantly with features, some of which we actually could use even if not needed.

Driven by high-disposable-income gamers and high-volume corporate user who re-deploy workstations every 3 years because it's in the budget.

Not pretty for us low-volume, long lifetime system developers.

But you can understand how the person who buys a couple licenses and "see you in 10 years" isn't exactly their "target market". These buyers are even less attractive when we find out that they are pushing the edges of the system, look under the covers, and expect to get competent technical help when they call, and hopefully a fix to the bugs they discover!

Get real :'-(
 
Mark, Mark, Mark,

The solution is obvous, buy two licenses for xp! Mount the first drive, install it, WPA it, commission it. Can't take more than a day. Remove that drive for backup, mount the other drive, install XP, WPA it, commission it. Probably not more than another day.

If the system goes down it can be up in a few minutes because you have a pre-approved copy on the other drive.

What's the problem?

Rufus

(I hope this post is received in the same spirit it was written ;)
 
L
Mark,

You need to upgrade to Ghost 7.0 - It was updated to work with the changes XP made to the NTFS. You will need to do the same with other non-microsoft
utilities like PartitionMagic, etc.

Dave Lillie
Program Manager
Rockwell Software Inc.
 
M
Actually as Ghost and Partion Image can copy, through the creation of an image, software that has been specifically designed to prevent copying
namely Siemens and Rockwell software activations it is illegal to use in the US (due to DMCA), which I am told does not have a fair use close (as all previous copyright acts do). Also since the US is intent on riding rough shod over any and all other nations sovereignty and legislation (as demonstrated by the case against a Russian software house), you can expect it (DMCA) in your neighbour hood any day soon.
 
M
I am not talking necessarily about a simply hard drive failure.

I have had CPUs fail, Motherboards and more importantly NICs (this later is important because we are advised by some that the activation may make use of the MAC address of the NIC, if it does you will not be able to change it either when it fails or to upgrade it.

Incidently your solution is no better than the Drive Image option, which will probably work if the change is 'just' a HDD change. (I can't believe that the hard disk is part of the activation key as this would preclude the
upgrade of the harddisk, surely one of the three or four most common upgrade choices).

Personally, I will not recommend Windows XP to any of my customers untill I can no longer get Win 2K. By then who knows what will have happened.

We have had to put up with the activation nightmare for years on SCADA and PLC development packages. It is a bit much when the operating system has activation, especially when it is implemented this way.
 
D
Mark,

I believe there is a context in which you are correct, and a context in which you are incorrect for RSI copy protection.

I am no lawyer, yet I understand RSI's copy protection license to allow you to duplicate an installed software package and activation so long as the duplicated image and activation is strictly limited to backing up the original installation target.

You are not allowed to make an image with activation for backing up a series of installations, or type of installation. If you want to do that, you need to duplicate the image without activation, then install activation following the duplication.

I am not answering this as a company spokesman - If you are interested in doing this, contact your rep and confirm.

Note: I am in the process of verifying the legality & conditions for ghosting an XP Target.


Dave Lillie
Program Manager
Rockwell Software Inc.
 
D
Mark,

I believe there is a context in which you are correct, and a context in which you are incorrect for RSI copy protection.

I am no lawyer, yet I understand RSI's copy protection license to allow you to duplicate an installed software package and activation so long as the duplicated image and activation is strictly limited to backing up the original installation target.

You are not allowed to make an image with activation for backing up a series of installations, or type of installation. If you want to do that, you need to duplicate the image without activation, then install activation following the duplication.

I am not answering this as a company spokesman - If you are interested in doing this, contact your rep and confirm.

Note: I am in the process of verifying the legality & conditions for ghosting an XP Target.


Dave Lillie
Program Manager
Rockwell Software Inc.
 
What does DMCA stand for ? And what is the case against the Russian software house ? Just curious.

Jay Kirsch
 
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