Windows XP, Anyone?

H

Higginbotham Ricky

Hi Ralph,

> From: Ralph Mackiewicz
>
> > And the same politics stopped the NSA's work on Linux, guess who was
> > complaining? It's the best certification money can buy!
> Just one more
> > exclusionary tactic.
>
> I'm fairly confident that anybody on this list that would actually
> describe publicly what the NSA is doing doesn't know what the NSA is
> doing. They could have a 1000 people working on Linux and outside of
> those 1000 people nobody is likely to know. And that is how it should
> be. There may have been some public declarations but I, for one,
> wouldn't believe anything that is publicly stated about what
> the NSA is
> or isn't doing.
>
> Ironically, if the government would have simply avoided filing its
> politically motivated anti-trust suit against MS in the first
> place they
> would have remained naive as to the ways of Washington and it
> would have
> been a whole lot easier for the feds to migrate to Linux.
> Ever since the
> government went after MS they are now more active in the
> lobbying arena
> then ever. It will be more difficult for the

I think its a fallacy to assume that government intervention is always bad for the market place (nor always good). Businesses and "Business people" will push the limits of legality and prudent judgement if left unchecked (witness Enron, etc.). Not all of them, but enough of them to be a detriment to society. Goverment may be a chainsaw instead of a surgical blade, but sometimes its better to just amputate the limb.

> goverment to do anything to change their usage of MS products now
> with that $39 Billion in cash greasing the greedy palms of the US
> Congress. It is sad that politics today is really dysfunctional. It
> should be obvious to everyone by now that Linux is a signficant
> factor in the market and that its usage and influence will continue to
> grow over time. The best thing that could happen to Linux is for the
> government to stay out of it. The political situation will only allow
> the government to do something after the rest of us have
> embraced it for the right business reasons instead of for political
> reasons.

Unfortunately, politics is already a tool being used by "the other side". From Miscrosoft to the RIAA. Its critically important that the OSS embraces that (political involvement) as the future. It doesn't do you any good to be great at writing *illegal* software.

Regards,
Richard Higginbotham

> Regards,
> Ralph Mackiewicz
> SISCO, Inc.
 
C
Hi Bob
Unfortunately, many people who should know better do rely on MS crypto. Including all but the most secretive parts of the government. I do agree with the articles in that I can't see MS even screwing with keys. They have access to the plaintext and the machine and nobody can watch them.

They wouldn't need a key unless something was encrypted/decrypted outside the box. Why use the window when the door's open? Just tee the input/output of the crypto functions. And I'm sure they'd never make a deal with their largest, most loyal, customer :^)

Regards
cww
 
C
Hi Anthony
Exactly, and I wouldn't feel bad about not buying the Corel Suite. WP7, which I liked a lot, was a native port as close as I can tell. It was fast, and pretty good for a first port. The next effort was a Windows product (they were "saved" by MS) and made to kinda work with Linux. I tried it, it was very forgettable. They also coincidentally got out of the Linux business. Even though Corel Linux was quite well thought of, especially by Windows users. Hmmmm......

I think MS just kept them around so they can point to their "competition". It wouldn't do to have none when you're engaged in monopoly litigation.

Regards
cww
 
>>And you actually believe the MS story that this
>>is about recovering from an Earthquake?

Yes, I believe the MS explanation. It requires grasping at fewer straws than some hack who finds a variable name with a convenient name to support some inane conspiracy theory.

Jeff
 
>> >"End Users have the option of purchasing any product they
>> >choose. It appears they've chosen."
>>??????????????????????????????????????
>>
>>No. Emphatically NO. The products that I like have withered and
>>died, unable to compete with Microsoft. I used to love Word
>>Perfect, Quattro, and OS2. Where are they now?

I'm sorry for your loss, but when end users choose, often times the competition does disappear.

OS/2 sucked for developers. Presentation Manager had an incredibly incomplete and bug ridden GUI API. It never ran Windows better than Windows. It never ran DOS better than DOS. And frequently, it ran OS/2 native apps poorly.

Jeff Dean
 
M

Michael Griffin

On October 10, 2002 12:25 pm, Curt Wuollet wrote:
<clip>
> That really is interesting,(Kiethley's figures) especially since
> none of the T&M/DAQ vendors really support the use of anything but late
> edition Windows. DOS libraries are usually considered legacy. It would
> be most interesting to have data for NI, (who once told me my warranty
> would be void if I used their board with Linux) and some of the clone
> builders also. Linux has always been popular with the scientific and
> engineering community. I tend towards the clone
> builders. They don't support Linux either, but at least I'm not
> paying a premium for non-support :^) I would hope the vendors take heed.
> Imagine what these figures would look like if they actually
> supported an alternative or two. NI is ahead of the game as they
> actually have a version of LabView for Linux.
<clip>

National Instruments supports VXI for Linux, they have a GPIB driver in beta, and may offer NIDAQ for Linux in future. They have a number of web pages discussing Linux issues with their hardware. As you mentioned, they have a Linux version of Labview - which is their flagship product. I think they aren't pushing this heavily because they don't have enough
driver support at this time. At present they are pointing people to the open source Comedi Linux drivers. The following is a quote from an NI web page concerning their DAQ boards:

"National Instruments currently does not offer any Data Acquisition (DAQ) support for Linux, although a driver may become available in the future. However, an open-source driver is available that offers approximately 90% of the functionality of our NI-DAQ driver. This collection of drivers, Comedi, currently supports E-Series devices only. Refer to the Comedi Driver page (linked below) for more information."

What is interesting is that Comedi supports a wide variety of hardware, rather than just that from one company. One of the things I never really liked about traditional DAQ libraries was that every board maker had their
own unique API. The little I have read about Comedi seems to indicate a common API for common functions across various manufacturers.

The open source bit sounds attractive as well. There has been a number of times on previous projects where this would have come in very handy as the manufacturer's documentation was often ambiguous or misleading. I've also
spent many days worth of effort trying to characterise bugs sufficiently well to describe them accurately to the manufacturer. It is difficult to construct test programs for a black box.
I have long since lost any illusions about even the most reputable manufacturer having bug free libraries. I won't rely on a function from anywhere which I have not thoroughly tested myself under conditions which I expect to encounter in my application.


************************
Michael Griffin
London, Ont. Canada
************************
 
Jiri (and anyone else concerned about WinXP's Automatic Updates) .......

I'm currently running another version of Windows so I can't really check this for sure, but I believe the following instructions will stop your
XP platform from attempting to perform AU's, regardless of who's logged onto the computer .......

Of course you'll need Admin rights to perform this feat ......

>From the "Run" window enter "gpedit.msc" and the "Group Policy Object
Editor" will appear.
Navigate to "Computer Configuration\Administrative Templates\Windows
Components\Windows Update" Right click on "Configure Automatic Updates"
in the right pane and select "Properties" Select "Disabled" then press
"OK"

<MS Quote>.........
Specifies whether this computer will receive security updates and other important downloads through the Windows automatic updating service.

This setting lets you specify if automatic updates are enabled on this computer. If the service is enabled, you must select one of the three options in the Group Policy Setting:

2 = Notify before downloading any updates and notify again before installing them

When Windows finds updates that apply to this computer, an icon appears in the status area with a message that updates are ready to be
downloaded. Clicking the icon or message provides the option to select the specific updates to download. Windows then downloads the selected
updates in the background. When the download is complete, the icon appears in the status area again, with notification that the updates are
ready to be installed. Clicking the icon or message provides the option to select which updates to install.

3 = (Default setting) Download the updates automatically and notify when they are ready to be installed

Windows finds updates that apply to your computer and downloads these updates in the background (the user is not notified or interrupted
during this process). When the download is complete, the icon appears in the status area, with notification that the updates are ready to be
installed. Clicking the icon or message provides the option to select which updates to install.

4 = Automatically download updates and install them on the schedule specified below

Specify the schedule using the options in the Group Policy Setting. If no schedule is specified, the default schedule for all installations will be everyday at 3:00 AM. If any of the updates require a restart to complete the installation, Windows will restart the computer
automatically. (If a user is logged on to the computer when Windows is ready to restart, the user will be notified and given the option to
delay the restart.)

To use this setting, click Enabled, and then select one of the options (2, 3, or 4). If you select 4, you can set a recurring schedule (if no
schedule is specified, all installations will occur everyday at 3:00 AM).

If the status is set to Enabled, Windows recognizes when this computer is online and uses its Internet connection to search the Windows Update Web site for updates that apply to this computer.

If the status is set to Disabled, any updates that are available on the Windows Update Web site must be downloaded and installed manually by
going to http://windowsupdate.microsoft.com."

If the status is set to Not Configured, use of Automatic Updates is not specified at the Group Policy level. However, an administrator can still
configure Automatic Updates through Control Panel. </MS Quote>

Hope this helps

Mark Hill - WinXP "Associate Expert"
 
My wife purchase a laptop from Gateway with some
version of windows XP.

The literature stated she had 30 days to activate the software. Since my home does not have an internet connection and since my office is on twisted pair, I was unsure how to activate the thing.

Any way it was her problem. I asked her about it several days after the 30 days was up and she said she just clicked no to the activation, and the operating system is still going.

Are there different version of XP that have different time limits? This thread has stated that windows would freeze if not activated, why hasn't that happened?

Thanks in advance

Larry
 
P
Hi curt,

Can you provide some examples of updates which aren't discretionary. I'm not aware of any but then I don't buy the story that the EULA creates a
legal obligation on the user to install updates even if they don't want to.

If you want to play a music file and need to download an update to MediaPlayer to do so then you either accept the down load or forgo the
ability to play the file. It's your choice.

From my understanding of Automatic Update, it's not actually fully automatic. The user is offered the update and then has to confirm their wish to have it installed. Your still ultimately in control.

I think their is also some confusion about what it means to buy software. What you buy is a license to use the software in accordance with the terms of the software license. Try buying a video from a retail store and then showing it in public. That breaches the terms of the license. Their are many other similar license restrictions that apply to all types of "software" including books, music CDs etc.

Either Microsoft is breaking the law or their not. If their not but you don't like the law as it currently stands then by all means lobby to have it changed.

Personally I do have some sympathy for changing the law to limit what Microsoft can do. As I understand it the US legal system has determined
that Microsoft has a monopoly on PC operating systems. Given that, I do believe it appropriate to provide a degree of special regulation of
Microsoft. This has been done before where monopolies have been found to exist.

One of the things that does worry me about XP is that it seems to be designed to send reports back to Microsoft relating to what the users do on
their computers. As an example this report:

"http://www.infosatellite.com/news/2002/02/h230202mediaplayer_detection.html":http://www.infosatellite.com/news/2002/02/h230202mediaplayer_detection.html

suggest that:

"..Microsoft has finally admitted that Windows Media Player 8, the standard media player shipped with Windows XP, surveys users and sends information back to Microsoft's servers.
Every time users use their CDs or DVDs, their actions are recorded into a small file that periodically is transmitted over the Internet to Microsoft.."

I've seen other reports suggesting that XP sends data back to Microsft whenever you undertake a search. Perhaps some current XP users might be
able to check their gateway logs and confirm if this is still happening.

Personally I would certainly find that something to worry about.

Regards

Peter Whalley
Magenta Communications Pty Ltd
Melbourne, VIC, Australia
e-mail: peter*no-spam*@magentacomm.com.au
delete *no-spam* before sending
 
>> > I've visited the MS campus in Redmond on a number of
>> > occasions and I see no evidence of Osama Bin Laden
>> > lurking in the hallways.
>>
>>Such comments are in bad taste. I don't mean to single
>>you out, I'm just saying I think we've taken this far
>>enough in a *public, professional* forum.

The entire Bin Laden thread in this conversation is based on one of the worst analogies and least thought through comparisons I've ever heard in my life. It was stated in incredibly poor taste with the clear intent of inflaming and injuring without regard for the audience. It is very fair to attack opposing views based on merit and facts, but making such comparisons is the worst form of zealotry. The comment may have been made in haste or in the heat of the moment, but then it was restated it days later. That absolutely disgusts me.

I hope that the person who made the comment would apologize to the list, but I'm not holding my breath.

Jeff
 
C
It is really interesting if you think the thing through
to it's final conclusions. You _will_ upgrade when they
want you to and you _will_ agree to ever more one sided
EULAs and you _will_ be restricted to seeing what they
want you to see and hearing what they want you to hear.
And if you try to break that, they _will_ fix it for you.
Of course, you can keep your old stuff, it just won't work.

What a blessing for the average user who needs a little
guidance. He won't have to control anything. And people
think _I'm_ mad.

Where do I sign up?

Regards

cww
 
V

Vladimir E. Zyubin

Hello Peter,

Unconvincing argument... The difference between EULA and a specific "how-to" instruction is more than obvious.

--
Best regards,
Vladimir E. Zyubin mailto:[email protected]
 
M

Michael Griffin

On October 11, 2002 03:09 pm, Peter Whalley wrote:
<clip>
> As I understand it, even in the case of DRM, you can decline the
> upgrades to WMP and forego the ability to play the file (music, video or
> whatever). It's your choice. But this only effects new files and not
> content that has previously been downloaded and played.
<clip>

I believe the MIcrosoft DRM system includes the ability to "revoke" existing
protected content on your computer. A list of "revoked" content can be remotely downloaded to the DRM system in your computer. This applies to content you have already downloaded and may be using.
For example if the graphic symbols in your SCADA system were somehow protected by the Microsoft DRM system, the ability to use them could be turned off remotely by the holder of the digital rights after the SCADA system was already in service. Your SCADA system wouldn't work anymore. However, you of course agreed that was OK when you accepted the license agreement for Windows XP.

************************
Michael Griffin
London, Ont. Canada
************************
 
M

Michael Griffin

On October 11, 2002 10:58 am, Jiri Baum wrote:

(My original commenst are in double quote indicators "> >". Mr. Baum's
replies use single ">" characters.)

<clip>
> > Windows will run for up to 3 days without re-authorising, but this is
> > not long enough to cover a long weekend or holiday period.
>
> How does this go with point B - do the "extended business hours" ever
> have a gap of 3 days or more? Are there times and places where continued
> availability of XP simply cannot be guaranteed, because re-authorisation
> is not available often enough?
<clip>
I have not found anywhere on Microsoft's web site where they promise that the re-authorisation system will be available at all times in all places. "Extended business hours" does not appear to be defined anywhere. No doubt,
Microsoft reserves the right to define these hours according to local circumstances, and to change these from time to time without notice.

In the automation business, it would appear to be up to the automation system designer to resolve this problem in a manner which is acceptable to their customer. No doubt anyone using WIndows XP as the OS for the system they are designing will need to research this question for each contract they undertake, and presumably cross their fingers and hope nothing changes during the warranty period. They will certainly need to have some plan in place for when the customer calls up on the weekend to complain that Windows is broken and they can't fix it.


> > E) Microsoft will support WPA activation for the designated life cycle
> > of Windows XP. They have no definite plans at this point for what they
> > will do after the official end of life.
>
> Hehe. Sorry, but the idea of deploying a product which may stop working
> five years after initial availability is so bad it's funny.
<clip>
In this point and the one above, you need to keep in mind what Windows XP was designed for. It was intended for supporting applications which do word processing and video games. It was not intended for systems which require continuous availability for extended periods of time. Microsoft is designing a product for what they see as their major markets. If this doesn't coincide with what a substantial portion of the automation market needs, then that certainly isn't Microsoft's problem.

> > The information below is tabulated as
> > Column 1 - Operating system
> > Column 2 - Systems which are currently in use
> > Column 3 - Systems to be used in the next 12 months
> >
> > Windows NT/2000 57% 55%
> > Windows 98 45% 26%
> > Windows 95 24% 13%
> > DOS 31% 16%
> > Unix 14% 14%
> > Windows XP 12% 21%
> > Linux 7% 14%
> > Mac 7% 5%
> > Other 5% 4%

> Cool, Linux has the highest ``growth'' (close second is WinXP, a new
> product).
<clip>

These are Keithley's numbers - a company which doesn't appear to have any major Linux products of their own to plug. I was surprised that the Linux numbers are as high as they are, considering that so many people on this list
were saying that no one is using it. *Someone*, or rather a lot of someones appear to be using it for test equipment.

What is also interesting is that WIndows XP seems to be eating into the WIndows 95/98 share, but not the Windows NT/2000 share (at least that is how I would interpret it). In other words, if Windows XP is a substitute for
Windows NT/2000 in new applications, then why isn't this reflected in a survey of customer buying intentions?


************************
Michael Griffin
London, Ont. Canada
************************
 
R

Ralph Mackiewicz

You can't win for losing. Both WordPerfect and QuattroPro are available from Corel. There is StarOffice from Sun. SmartSuite from Lotus/IBM. OpenOffice for free with source code. Except for
SmartSuite, these also run on non-MS platforms. The choices are there, the market is aware, but the buyer won't spend the money. Who is making these choices wither? (assuming that they are withering). Look in a mirror.

Regards,
Ralph Mackiewicz
SISCO, Inc.
 
G

George Robertson

I'm out here at the Permian Basin Oil Show, and all the SCADA/MMI vendors I'm talking too are touting their upcoming XP releases. So, whether we like it or not, here comes that screamin' sound again!

George G. Robertson, P.E.
Manager of Engineering
Saulsbury E & C
[email protected]
(915) 366-4252
 
C
I quite agree on COMEDI. It's the kind of solution you get when _users_ solve a problem. The NI support issue, I am willing to write off as a local (MPLS) office thing. Still, it's quite discouraging to overcome all the opposition and "sell" a NI on Linux approach, only to be blown out of the water by the vendor's own Windows bigots. With the playing field as slanted as it is, this is sure death for a Linux proposal. It's not likely that I'll recommend LabView anytime soon. It's a pity, from all accounts I've heard it works well and doesn't crash. This is how you launch and scuttle a product in one fell swoop. Generally, folks who want the Linux product, don't want to fall back to Windows.

COMEDI is a really great concept that deserves more visibility than it's gotten. It's a framework where you describe a card and it builds the driver, sorta. Can you imagine how useful this would be for laying seige to the Tower of Babel? Too bad there's so much secrecy on card interfaces. But, a similar approach should be possible for SST cards, for example.

Regards

cww
--
Free Tools!
Machine Automation Tools (LinuxPLC) Free, Truly Open & Publicly Owned
Industrial Automation Software For Linux. mat.sourceforge.net.
Day Job: None, are you interested?
Consultancy: Wide Open Technologies: Moving Business & Automation to Linux.
 
C
Hi Peter.

On October 16, 2002, Peter Whalley wrote:
> Hi curt,
>
> Can you provide some examples of updates which aren't discretionary. I'm
> not aware of any but then I don't buy the story that the EULA creates a
> legal obligation on the user to install updates even if they don't want
> to.

I'm afraid not. I don't own any MS software. I do recall
non-discretionary tracking numbers embedded in Word documents and several customers have complained of their Windows boxes "phoning home" and then there was the whole Processor Serial number debacle. I wouldn't expect them to advertise this "feature". Inclusion in the EULA should be enough warning. The Back Orifice incident and others suggest it's silly to assume they can't and making you agree to it makes it really silly to assume they won't. Why open that can of worms unless you're goin fishing?

> If you want to play a music file and need to download an update to
> MediaPlayer to do so then you either accept the down load or forgo the
> ability to play the file. It's your choice.
>
> From my understanding of Automatic Update, it's not actually fully
> automatic. The user is offered the update and then has to confirm their
> wish to have it installed. Your still ultimately in control.
>
> I think their is also some confusion about what it means to buy
> software. What you buy is a license to use the software in accordance
> with the terms of the software license. Try buying a video from a retail
> store and then showing it in public. That breaches the terms of the
> license. Their are many other similar license restrictions that apply to
> all types of "software" including books, music CDs etc.
>
> Either Microsoft is breaking the law or their not. If their not but you
> don't like the law as it currently stands then by all means lobby to
> have it changed.

Let's see, I got about $40.00, they've got about $40 Billion. Game Over.

> Personally I do have some sympathy for changing the law to limit what
> Microsoft can do. As I understand it the US legal system has determined
> that Microsoft has a monopoly on PC operating systems. Given that, I do
> believe it appropriate to provide a degree of special regulation of
> Microsoft. This has been done before where monopolies have been found to
> exist.

I don't believe the government can/will do anything meaningful, too many congresscritters are beholden to Microsoft.and their influence is too omnipotent. MS is out of control, plain and simple. It's up to "We the people".to dismantle the monopoly that we've built. I'm doing my part.

> One of the things that does worry me about XP is that it seems to be
> designed to send reports back to Microsoft relating to what the users do
> on their computers. As an example this report:
>
"http://www.infosatellite.com/news/2002/02/h230202mediaplayer_detection.html":http://www.infosatellite.com/news/2002/02/h230202mediaplayer_detection.html
>
> suggest that:
>
> "..Microsoft has finally admitted that Windows Media Player 8, the
> standard media player shipped with Windows XP, surveys users and sends
> information back to Microsoft's servers.
> Every time users use their CDs or DVDs, their actions are recorded into
> a small file that periodically is transmitted over the Internet to
> Microsoft.."

That's the least of your worries. Why would they limit themselves to that? How would you know? There's a vast amount of money to be made with this intelligence. What would it be worth to your competitors?

> I've seen other reports suggesting that XP sends data back to Microsft
> whenever you undertake a search. Perhaps some current XP users might be
> able to check their gateway logs and confirm if this is still happening.
>
> Personally I would certainly find that something to worry about.

Personally, I find such ethical bankruptcy sufficient cause to use Linux exclusively. I can do that. Others are less fortunate but, I expect they'll learn. Perhaps the hard way.

Regards

cww
--
Free Tools!
Machine Automation Tools (LinuxPLC) Free, Truly Open & Publicly Owned
Industrial Automation Software For Linux. mat.sourceforge.net.
Day Job: None, are you interested?
Consultancy: Wide Open Technologies: Moving Business & Automation to Linux.
 
M

Michael Griffin

I am not a Windows XP expert, and I don't know exactly what you have on your computer, but I can tell you the following. There are three basic versions of Windows XP:
1) The "corporate" version. This does not have Windows activation. The copy is licensed directly to a specific customer who is only allowed to install it on a set number of computers which will remain in their possesion. I.e. you can't then sell the computer to someone else as part of a system. This is typically the version which very large customers will use, although there is a version which goes down as small as 5 licenses.
2) The "retail" version. This has the WPA (Windows Product Activation) feature. This what you would typically buy from a retailer if you only want one computer at a time.
3) The "OEM" version. This is essentially the same as the "retail" version, but it allows an OEM (possibly a company like Gateway) to conveniently "pre-activate" it on their assembly line. When it arrives at the customer, it
is already activated. There are supposedly manufacturing advantages to the OEM, but is is also supposedly more sensitive to hardware changes than the regular "retail" version so it can cause repair problems. Like the "retail"
version, you have to "re-activate" it if you make changes to the computer hardware.

In addition to the above, there are a number of "pirate" versions in which the WPA has been cracked or removed in some fashion (or was never present). Defeating the WPA does not appear to have been a significant problem for anyone who seriously wanted to pirate the software. The pirate versions supposedly outnumber the legitimate versions in some parts of the world.

It is quite possible that your computer has the "OEM" version, and it came "pre-activated". What you may have seen was a request for "registration", rather than "activation". Microsoft obscures the difference between these two, but essentially, "activation" is mandatory, but "registration" is optional.

"Registration" is just providing information for Microsoft's marketting department. Microsoft tries to confuse people (quite successfully I hear) about the difference between activation and registration in order to get them to register the product.

If you need any more information than the above, I suggest you talk to someone who knows more about Windows XP than I do.

--

************************
Michael Griffin
London, Ont. Canada
************************
 
Top