Hello,

during the normal running of Gas turbine unit generator drive mark VI controller frame 5.

the unit is loaded and from time to time the above alarm appear and become normal so I need to know more about this alarm and the seriousness of this alarm.

The unit still running normally when this alarm appears.

Thanks...

 

Can you tell us how many fired starts and emergency trips are on each of the two machines?

This is the third time in as many weeks I've heard about this alarm. I have yet to be able to look at any application code to determine what's driving it.

You should be able to use Toolbox to determine what logic is driving the alarm message. If I recall correctly, there is a method to correlate an alarm logic or drop number to a particular logic signal, and there is a display from which one can double-click to be taken to the rung where the logic signal is written from which one can learn the conditions that will cause the alarm to be annunciated.

 

Well explained by CSA

 

Hello,

Total starts 19

Total trips 9

thanks

 

hi,

Mr. rajesh,can i have ur mail id? i need to contact u

 

What you have is Trip Multiplier software installed. You need to check your code for the exact settings, but what this is going to do is multiply the trip settings on your proximeter probes by a factor for a time period if the rate of change of Mw is above a certain rate/second. This is to prevent a vibration trip from a sudden load change by increasing the trip limit for a few seconds.

The alarm "Too long or Too often" will happen if the multiplier is on for over a maximum time period or if it is switched on too many times within a defined time period.

This can happen if the load change pattern on your machine changes for some reason and starts to trigger the multiplier frequently. If this is a new machine, the system may not have been set up properly for your operational pattern.

We have this system installed at a newly commissioned plant here and are still fine tuning it to get it to react correctly.

 

Bob Johnston,

Thanks very much for the information!

Do you have any documentation on this Trip Multiplier function?

 

Hi CSA & all,

Unfortunately there appears to be no documentation on this system. I've talked to the GE guys on site and they don't have anything either. I could post the software, is there somewhere on Control.com that I can do that?

<b>Moderator's note:</b> people usually post to a download site and then put the url for the file in a message for the list.

 

Bob Johnston,

What's that, you say? No documentation from GE?

 

Surprising, isn't it...!!!

 

If you are having troubleshooting or performance issues on your GE Mark series control, you can receive free support at GE's Controls Connect internet portal.

If you are a turbine operator Controls Connect gives you access to our knowledge database which has an advanced search engine for finding knowledge articles, manuals, application guides, TILs, white papers, etc. We also provide phone/email support from our experienced technical support team. This is all a free service.

I completed a search on the Trip Multiplier topic and it returned several documents that may help. However, if not, we have Technical Support via phone or email that would be able to answer your question.

In addition, we are launching a free LIFECYCLE WEBINAR series that is available to Controls Connect users. I have attached a link to the webinar invitation if you are interested. The series will cover multiple topics addressing Mark V, VI and VIe and include multiple options for support well past 2015. The title of the Webinar Series is “Discover the Cure for Obsolescence”. Hopefully, you will find it valuable. http://geglobal.informz.net/geglobal/archives/archive_2468882.html

CONTROLS CONNECT NOTE: If you have a GE SSO#/Login and are a GE turbine operator, business associate or EPC firm, please send me an email at [email protected] with the subject "Controls Connect Access" and include your SSO#, Name and Company. Note that we do not accept generic email addresses (e.g. @yahoo, @hotmail, @gmail, etc). Company based email addresses are required for security reasons. Your registration will take approximately 3 days. If you do not have a GE SSO# you can register at http://site.ge-energy.com/online_tools/controls_connect.htm or just perform a Google search on "Controls Connect". Just click on the register button to start the process. Registration forms should require less than 5 minutes to complete. If you have any questions feel free to contact me at [email protected]
I am the Product Line Leader at GE Measurement and Controls.

 

A lot of the time, the reason people post on this forum is because they cannot get answers from the OEM. For this specific issue which you have tried to address, as I said above, the GE engineers who are on site commissioning these machines, and the piece of software in question, cannot provide procedures for the software. Please don't give false hope to forum members that the OEM is the universal solution.

 

John Emery,

It's great that GE is providing this free service to Customers; thanks for continuing to bring it to our attention.

However, I believe that the community here at control.com provides as much or more value to the GE-design heavy duty gas turbine controls community because of the case-based threads that everyone can read and follow. And, when the original poster responds with feedback it makes the threads even more valuable because many people benefit from the experiences of one.

I understand people can get their individual problems analyzed via GE Controls Connect, but how do others learn from the that service? How does solving problems one at a time, individually, benefit others who are trying to increase their knowledge and experience with various turbine systems and auxiliaries?

Solving problems one at a time is valuable for that person/site, but what we do here at control.com is provide background and information that doesn't always come from a simple problem response. We try to build and expand knowledge and experience while solving their problem. And, because of open nature of this forum that knowledge and experience--and problem resolution--can be shared by many, many people. And that's what we've been doing here at control.com for a very long time.

That's the beauty of the community here at control.com. While we may not have the benefit of "inside knowledge" on certain issues, we all learn from each others' problems and questions.

For example, we have quite a large number of threads and information about servo-valve null bias current and droop speed control. I would venture a guess that on GE Controls Connect there are probably less than five paragraphs available on null bias current, what it is, how it is adjusted, what the limits of adjustment are, etc. And that information is probably very ethereal and not understandable by most technicians or even engineers.

And, what about droop speed control? There's probably only a few paragraphs about "sharing load". We have volumes here on control.com about droop speed control, and several contributors have written to try to share their analogies and experiences on many of the threads. And many have written to thank contributors for the information provided here.

Does GE Controls Connect have anything like the forum here where people can search for keywords and find cases and real-world situations and problems and solutions?

Why doesn't GE embrace the community here at control.com and provide input and assistance--and correction, if necessary--instead of trying to re-direct people to a closed site?

GE could still promote its products and services on control.com while providing much-needed information that is not available in manuals (which could have been available in manuals). There doesn't have to be a single World Wide Web site for all things GE Speedtronic-related that is controlled and closed. GE has many good programming practices and philosophies that people in other industries could benefit from--and there are many good programming practices and philosophies in other industries that GE could benefit from as well. This is a great forum for everyone if it's recognized for what it is and could be.

So, thanks again for offering this new site and service, but please recognize the value this forum provides that is probably not available in GE Controls Connect.

Leading by example, and learning from good example, is always best.

 

+1 CSA

You obviously have more time than I do and can send much more polite replies. Everything you have said is so true.

 

Bob Johnston,

I just traded emails with a former colleague who still works at GE and he told me that GE Controls Connect isn't well publicized in GE, that many field service people don't know about it or even use it. He also told me that there appears to be several different levels of access to the information in GE Controls Connect leading to some people being able to find information that others cannot. It's not clear who gets what privileges or how to get expanded privileges.

So, could you ask your GE TAs if they know about GE Controls Connect and if they do if they can find information about Trip Multiplier software and then possibly we could all get some more information? Thanks!

Kind of reminds me of what a Siemens colleague once told me: "If Siemens only knew what Siemens knew!" meaning that there was a lot of knowledge and information available in Siemens but it wasn't wide publicized where to find the information or how to get it. Which lead to a lot of reinventions of the wheel. I think most large corporations have the same or similar issues.

 

There are a fair number of tech notes that AB has hidden away too. It seems like some of them the tech support guys cannot get at either, although some (maybe managers) can. I have not been able to discern any obvious difference between what is readily available and what is not. Much of it seems like pretty mundane stuff. oddly there seems to be no stricture against faxing or emailing such tech notes to customers. they just appear to not be available to the average customer via the web site.

--
Bob

 

Trip multiplied automatically active for two circumstances

- During Turbine startup to avoid vibration high high trip from load-gear during shaft break-away.

- When there is high rate of load changes. To avoid vibration high high trip from load-gear as a results from load rejection. After the trip-multiplied is active there is a timer to remove trip multiplied after load changes. When the load varies over the pre-defined setting it seens by Speedtronic as load rejection, causes trip multiplier to active for too often (because load variation) or too long for the same reason. This alarm is annunciated.

The start-up TA should monitor this alarm when he commissioned the unit and tuned the filter inside the software but not overtuned until defeating the purpose of this trip multiplied and caused the unit trip by vibration high high on load-gear when there is a load rejection.

 

I mentioned in my previous post about two circumstances that trip multiplied is active. I forgot one more so,

1) During break-away (starting)
2) Before closing circuit breaker
3) High rate of load changes (projection for a load rejection).