Difference between Mark-V and Mark-VIe

H

Thread Starter

hany5757

I was working before with Mark-V and now transfered to a plant having Mark-VIe control system for frame 6 GE GT. I have no experience with Mark-VIe. I noticed there are only R, S and T Processors in Mark-VIe while we had P processors (TMR-X,Y and Z) in Mark-V. So there are no dedicated processors for protection in Mark-VIe? How protection is done in Mark-VIe? What about the PTR & ETR relays? Are they available in Mark-VIe or How this functionality is done in Mark-VIe? Appreciate if more information for the difference between Mark-V and Mar-VIe. Also please I noticed there is history station which was not before in Mark-V?
 
hany5757,

You need to find GEH-6721, the Mark VIe System Guide, on the HMI and review that document (it's usually two volumes). It's a good place to start understanding.

For the ETR and PTR business you need to go to Vol. II, and look at the PPRO section; you will find there is a TRPG card and TREG card--the TRPG has the PTRs, and the TREG has the ETRs. The fuel trip solenoid(s) (20FG-1 and 20FL-1) are connected between the TRPG and TREG.

The ETRs on the TREG are driven by PPROs--either on SPRO cards, or a TPRO card. The I/O Packs (PPROs) and SPROs/TPRO are the equivalent of the <P> core--<X>, <Y> and <Z>.

In the Mark VI and Mark VIe, one of the three control processors is chosen to be the designated processor/controller: Usually it's <R>, but it can switch to <S>, and it will never be <T> (under normal circumstances). The designated processor is the one that sends information to the HMIs and receives commands from the HMIs for control and operation. No <C> is required.

There are still "SIMPLEX" cards/I/O Packs (as if there were a <C>) for "non-critical" I/O, but they are located in <R>, or <S> or <T>. (The T/C cards for exhaust T/Cs are usually SIMPLEX but there are three of them, in a quasi-TMR configuration--isn't this fun?!?!?!).

But, have a read of GEH-6721, or at least a good, long glance at the document. It has good information.

The good news is that the "logic" you saw in the Mark V is pretty much duplicated in the Mark VIe--and the operating principles and philosophies for the turbines remain the same. Many of the signals are the same--with one big difference: signal names can be upper- or lower-case. And, by convention, signal names in lower-case are associated with inputs and outputs (I/O). So, this makes it "easier" to spot a signal that should be either an input or an output.

Hope this helps! We're here if you have more questions!

Oh, the Historian was available for Mark V--but, usually there is no one on site trained to use it or maintain it. They are handy--but they are almost NEVER properly configured from the factory, and require a LOT of on-site modification to make them useful. If it's a PI-based Historian (PI is a product of OSISoft), it's a VERY powerful application--but it requires lots of training to understand and maintain. And, of course, nothing is documented by GE about how it works with the Mark VIe, and how to make sure the Historian is properly updated as any changes are made to the Mark VIe.... Consistently inconsistent as a former colleague used to always say (and he was right!).
 
Thanks sir for your reply. I have got the manuals as per your advice. But there is no information mentioned at all in the manuals about using the software of HMI, especially the toolbox, diagnostics for hardware cards, forcing, tag searching, etc. Is there any document I can found how to work on toolbox?

So, as per your statement, History no way to know how to use it?
 
hany5757,

On most newer GE HMIs there is a folder for 'Documentation' and in that folder they are putting a LOT of documents--GEHs and GEIs and I've seen some GETs, as well.

Unfortunately, all of the document filenames are just the GEx-nnnn designation, so one has to open every one of the documents to see what the document title is....

My recommendation is to open each document one at a time, write down the title, close the document, right-click on it, click on 'Rename' and then change the name to something more useful. For example, GEH-6721-Vol_1.pdf could be changed to GEH-6721-Vol-1-MarkVIe_SystemGuide.pdf., or something similar. AS LONG AS YOU DON'T CHANGE the .pdf designation changing any other portion of the name will not change anything in the file. (Even changing the .pdf doesn't change anything in the file--it just means you can't double-click on the file and have a .pdf reader application open it automatically.)

I've also seen people create different sub-folders with more descriptive names, like 'MarkVIe System Guide' and then copy all of the GEH-6721 .pdf files into the folder. That way the filename doesn't have to be changed.

But, do take some time and go through the 'Documentation' or 'Documents' folders on the HMI hard drive and familiarize yourself with the documents and what's in there. With the advent of Mark VIe there are a LOT of smaller documents with some very good information in them--a <b>LOT</b> of new documents with some <b>VERY</b> good information in them.

There's also 'Help' in the various applications.

To use ToolboxST, the Mark VIe configuration and troubleshooting application, you need to find the .tcw file for the unit you are working on <b>ON THE MASTER DRIVE.</b> What is the Master drive, you ask? It's usually on one of the Control Room Servers (for example, CRM1_SVR), and there is a folder called 'Master', usually on the E: drive (I believe). Every other HMI should already have a mapped network drive in Windows Explorer (NOT Internet Explorer, Windows (File) explorer) to M: and M: should be the appropriate directory on the designated "master" HMI. So, UNLIKE Mark V, where every HMI could have different files, by using a single file in a "central" or "master" location and opening that single file from ANY HMI on the network, one can be reasonable assured that one is looking at the latest and greatest file with all the most recent changes. That's the intent, anyway. And it should be ENFORCED--otherwise the network becomes a bloody mess.

Once you find, for example, GT1.tcw for Unit 1, you should just be able to double-click on the file and it should open in ToolboxST.

There is a pair of binoculars in the icon menu near the Menu bar at the top of ToolboxST. You can click on the binoculars (or press CRTL + F) and then type in the signal name you are looking for and then click on 'Search.' You should be provided with a list of 'where used', and the location where the signal is written to (the "coil") is depicted with a yellow tablet with a blue writing stick next to it. Double-click on it and you will be taken to the place in application code (it's not called sequencing anymore) the signal is written to.

It takes some practice and exposure, but, again, there is 'Help' in ToolboxST and there is a ToolboxST manual (sorry; I don't remember the GEH number).

So, GEH-6721 is for the Mark VIe hardware, and the ToolboxST for Mark VIe manual is for the configuration/troubleshooting/trending software tool used with Mark VIe hardware.

All logic forcing, Control Constant changes, and LVDT calibrations are done using ToolboxST. Some functions require a password; <b>NO ONE should be providing any of the default passwords on control.com.</b> Some ToolboxST installations don't require any password (which is dangerous and highly discouraged).

ToolboxST has a GREAT trending function, Watch Windows which are VERY useful, and all of the other functions and more that were available with Mark V via command-line options and various programs--all in one place/tool. The display of "rungs" is a little different--because they are using FBD (Function Block Display) which is a crappy version of RLD (Relay Ladder Diagram) display. And, the one thing I particularly detest is the use of macros for some of the algorithmic blocks. Many of the "regular" blocks have 'Help' available (by right-clicking on the block and selecting 'Item Help'). But, most macros DO NOT have 'Item Help' and GE seems to be moving more and more to macros--because they don't have to document the operation/function of macros and that makes it different for after-market control system integrators to duplicate them. (Oh, and by the way--GE is in the process of patenting many of the algorithmic blocks to prevent copying of them by infidels who would supplant Speedtronic with something different.)

Have a look around, and enjoy. You can't hurt anything with a well-intentioned keystroke or click! If you were just clicking around and getting familiar with things and something gets changed inadvertently, just don't click on 'Save' when exiting Toolbox!

Hope this helps!
 
I'd also recommend GEH-6808, the ControlST Suite How-to Guides (GHT-2000xxx in older ControlST versions).

The documents are usually added to the Start Menu with the document title, but I recommend creating a PDF index for the documents so you can search easier. Instructions for doing so are actually in section 4.1 of the How To guide (if your ControlST version is recent enough), but boil down to adding the ControlST documentation folder to the Windows Index service in the "Indexing Options" control panel. Then, windows search will find content from the manuals.

>It takes some practice and exposure, but, again, there is
>'Help' in ToolboxST and there is a ToolboxST manual (sorry;
>I don't remember the GEH number).
GEH-6700

>"rungs" is a little different--because they are using FBD
>(Function Block Display) which is a crappy version of RLD
>(Relay Ladder Diagram) display.
RLD and FBD are different languages; the overall direction of the controls industry is away from RLD, generally along generational lines. The older the engineer, the more they like RLD. :)

ToolboxST's RLD capability is very limited (see RUNG blocks), but it has some unique features in the FBD editor that sadly go largely unused in the GT and ST standard code. Typical Mark VIe DCS code and some more recent GT standards use manually arranged FBDs, the variable rail and animated block shapes to improve code documentation.

Another general thing, the more recent versions of ControlST are far better, so your mileage may vary.
 
hany5757,

As for familiarizing oneself with the Historian (<H>), have a look around on the <H> hard drive for some .pdf files about how to use it.

Personally, I have worked very hard at avoiding them since my first experience with them, and even more so after my fourth and fifth experiences with them. Again, nothing is documented very well. They are cobbled together using ControlST/WorkstationST and either PI or PROFICY Historian (PROFICY is GE Intelligent Platform's new name for CIMPLICITY). The worst thing about them is that they are never, Never, NEVER configured correctly from the factory or by field personnel. For example, to save data without using massive amounts of hard drive space, most applications don't save any data unless it changes by a certain amount. So, for example, a pressure transmitter input scaled for 0-20 barg might be configured to only save data when the pressure changed by 1 barg (which is a LOT), when it would be better if it were configured to change for every 0.1 barg (depending on the sensor and parameter, of course). One turbine I worked on operated at 3000 RPM, and the factory configuration setting for saving speed was that it had to change by more than 3600 RPM before any value of speed would be saved. So, when we went to look at a start-up for example, TNH was 0% for the entire operating period!

Little things like that make it very difficult to use. I know of plants that have invested man-months of time configuring the signals to save at meaningful intervals so that the data would be useful. And, that means someone had to learn PI, learn how to configure things, and generally that person became the Historian expert. And, there is usually only one of them at a site, and if that person leaves (which they usually do when they get PI experience--which is very valuable!) then no one knows anything about the Historian any more. Not even the OEM field service person.

Best of luck with this! It's a useful tool for some things, but can be VERY misleading if not properly configured and if people don't understand the limitations and how to interpret the information as presented. It's really a double-edged sword of a tool.
 
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