Today is...
Saturday, October 21, 2017
Welcome to Control.com, the global online
community of automation professionals.
Featured Video...
Featured Video
EtherCAT with CTC’s master lets your multivendor network play well together...
Our Advertisers
Help keep our servers running...
Patronize our advertisers!
Visit our Post Archive
Request for GE Documents for Beginners
Request for GE Documents for Beginners

Dear All,

HI,

I'm new to this group. I'm working in oil & gas plant as a panel operator. I tried to find out the GE Documents for Beginners containing basic definition & working principle like wheel space,TTRF, Spread & Turbine operation on temperature control & Speed control.

I've tried already the search field but couldn't find the threads for beginners.
Can any one of you guide me with the link,thread or the docs?

My email address is kashif_taurus@yahoo.com

Regards,
Kashif Sagheer

1 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful...

Can you give the forum some more information on your plant, model of turbines used and control system, type of operation ( Generation? Simple/combined cycle?).

The forum is not really to provide documents but to try and help you and other users to discuss problems.

Do you have access to site manuals/drawings that you can use?
Have you had any kind of training?

Please reply

Dear Glen,

Thanks for the reply I'm working in LNG plant in Qatar. The turbine we have is simple cycle F5 & F9 GE. I didn't get any vendor training so far. I saw your email on one of the thread you were offering Doc. for beginners, Help in any case (providing docs or referring to any forum where I can learn about operational terminology) is highly appreciated.

The manual we have is accessible but mostly covering Control & Mech. side.

Thanks Again

Regards,
Kashif

1 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful...

This is Control.com, the documents I have are for control systems. If you don't understand how an LNG plant works, I think that you need to ask your Employer (RAS Gas?) to get you some training.

1 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful...

Kashif_Qatar,

The GE-design heavy duty gas turbine controls-related community here at control.com has been active for more than a decade (approaching a decade-and-a-half, if I'm not mistaken). In that time, we have covered a LOT of GE-design heavy duty gas turbine-related topics--mostly controls, but a LOT of mechanical information, too. Perhaps not exactly what you're looking for, but we have answered a LOT of questions--many times the same questions asked in slightly different ways--and because the control system has to operate mechanical devices and systems we also answer many mechanically-related questions.

The 'Search' field at the upper right of the Menu bar of every desktop control.com web page (and under the 'Control.Com' tab of the mobile webpage) has a very fast, in un-intuitive, search capability (use the Search 'Help' the first time you search past threads (sometimes called archives) to learn the syntax of searching on control.com. You will soon find you can get a LOT of information from past threads--including lots of feedback from people who have found the information useful, or not. Feedback is the best part of the community here at control.com--people writing back to tell us how their problem was solved, and if the information provided was useful or not.

As for the "beginner's documents"--there really isn't such place on control.com with the exact information you seek. But, if you search on keywords and terms I can pretty much guarantee you will MORE than you seek, if you take the time to read the threads. Wheelspace temperatures, exhaust temperature spreads, TTRF (and TTRF1), and Droop Speed Control have all been covered tens of times over the years, and in many ways. We try to explain words and terms--and sometimes do so repeatedly over the years in the interest of brevity (though many of the responses are anything BUT brief!).

Sometimes, the site "library" has copies of vendor training manuals, which can be useful, or not. Or, someone who's still employed there who has attended vendor training might have their manual(s) they will lend you.

If you use the 'Search' feature, and you can't find exactly what you're looking for in the search results, please--open a new thread and ask your question here. BUT, do use the 'Search' feature--it's very fast and can be used to narrow the results down to just a few.

As for training--well, that's something is in short supply in many parts of the world, not just your region. Managers and owners don't want to pay for training when the employees who get training will leave as soon as they get an offer of 50 cents US more per hour, so their investment is soon lost. (And people DO begin shopping for a new job as soon as they get any vendor training trying to get any increase in wage they can get.) So, Managers and owners are content to let existing employees train new employees--even if that is some of the worst training that can be given. MANY employees didn't get any formal (vendor) training when they started, and anything which is false or incorrect which was told to them will be repeated to the new employees receiving "on-the-job" (OJT) training. So, falsehoods and wives' tales are rampant in the industry where OJT is used by ownership and management. And, sometimes existing employees are reluctant to tell new employees what they know and have learned for fear of losing their job. So, getting good information from on-the-job training can be very difficult. [NOTE: I'm not saying on-the-job training is always bad--just that it can be.]

When it comes to controls-related topics for GE-design heavy duty gas turbines--control.com is an excellent resource. If you want to know why a gas turbine or compressor is vibrating--that's not an appropriate topic for control.com. If the control system says it's vibrating, then either the instrumentation is wrong OR there truly is vibration. And, the best way to know if there truly is vibration is to GET OUT OF THE CONTROL ROOM and check the area where the control system is reporting vibration to determine with one's own ears and feet if there is truly vibration. And, then check the instrumentation to determine if it's working correctly.

But, DON'T always suspect the turbine control system whenever it annunciates an alarm that someone doesn't want to believe or doesn't understand. These days modern control systems are VERY good, and while they may not have been properly configured or commissioned to reduce erroneous and nuisance alarms they can be very good at alerting operators--and technicians--to problems.

The two most important things to know about operating any large piece of rotating equipment is: First, PAY ATTENTION TO ALARMS. They can alert an operator to a potential problem BEFORE the turbine trips. And, second: The turbine control system trips the turbine for SERIOUS PROBLEMS ONLY WHICH CAN CAUSE VERY SERIOUS DAMAGE IF NOT PROMPTLY DEALT WITH, >>>but<<< the turbine control system leaves many problems up to the operator to decide what to do because it's not necessary to trip on every problem. So, failure to act on a particular alarm condition MAY CASE SERIOUS DAMAGE to the turbine if left unattended for even a few minutes.

SO, try to learn what EVERY single alarm means, and what the operator should do in the case of every single alarm. If it's a nuisance or erroneous alarm--GET THE TECHNICIANS TO DEAL WITH IT. DO NOT ACCEPT THE ANSWER, "WE ALWAYS GET THAT ALARM--DON'T PAY ANY ATTENTION TO IT!!! That's the absolute WORST answer anyone can give you when it comes to any alarm. It just means either they don't understand what the alarm is trying to tell them, or the technical staff doesn't understand it either and is ignoring the alarm (or has been ignoring the alarm)--and neither possibility is good.

It's almost sad to say this, but the most important job of any operator is to manage alarms. What does "alarm management" mean? It means to acknowledge and resolve--or to get help resolving--every single alarm. You want to get the alarm page to the absolute minimum number of alarms--and those should be TRUE alarm conditions, not nuisance or erroneous alarms. To do that, one has to understand what the alarm is trying to tell you, and take appropriate action. And, that takes good training and experience--which seems to be in short supply at your site. So, be patient, learn to manage alarms and learn how the units at your site operate. Find a mentor, and ask questions. And, ALWAYS be willing to share the information you receive if it seems reasonable and correct. You will find others will be more willing to share information they have with you if you share information you have with them--when they ask you, of course.

Again, the resources of past threads here on control.com are numerous, and I believe if you--as many like you have done--read the threads, you will learn a LOT about things you didn't even realize you didn't know. And, if you need clarity we are here to help. We don't like the word 'doubt' when it comes to something you have read on control.com (look up the definition of the word 'doubt' in your Oxford's English Dictionary and you will understand why we don't like the word)--but if you have questions, or need clarity, just ask. We can usually provide that.

Watch, listen and learn while you are first at the site. Some things will become obvious very quickly. Others will require more investigation and questions--and you will soon find out who on the site is most knowledgeable and is willing to share their knowledge and experience. Befriend that person, and you will have a great resource which can help you for a LONG time.

BUT, about the best single thing you can do as you start your journey is to get a copy of the unit P&IDs (GE calls them Schematic Piping Diagrams, or "Piping Schematics") and study them and learn to understand what the symbols mean. It's NOT difficult, and IT IS CRITICAL to understanding how GE-design heavy duty gas turbines operate. Make notes on your copies as you learn things, they are YOUR copies, and you can write whatever you want on them (which is why I suggest you make the largest size copies of the drawings that you can make to have the most room for your notes). By doing this, you will eventually get the best understanding of how the unit operates and what devices and instruments and field devices the control system uses and controls to operate and protect the unit. There's no better "beginner document" than the P&IDs. In the Operations & Service Manuals provided with the units there will be a section for each of the systems with some brief and generic information about the systems and how they work. So, P&IDs combined with the system-specific information in the manuals is a fine way to begin learning about the turbine and the control system.

Thanks a lot CSA for the detailed answer.