I attended a training class on a non-AB product last week and heard from several local systems integrators that AB was now giving their distributors commission on services sold through AB, thereby cutting out the local SIs. Is this true or was it just a bunch of the competition blowing smoke? Anyone know?

I just can't see how this would benefit AB or their current System Integrator network.

 

It seems to be true. Don't fool yourself that they aren't looking for dollars just as much as you are.

It may not benefit their current SI network, but it's another dollar in their pockets. And they have the perceived advantage of "who could possibly do a better job than the manufacturer" on their side.
--
Michael R. Batchelor

www.IndustrialInformatics.com

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As an former A-B field service engineer, I can tell you that it has always been a policy to give the distributor around 13-15% of the call-out service fee. It used to drive me crazy too. The distributor rarely stepped foot in the plant.

 

Michael, you are correct, the only back AB has is their own... looking out for #1. I'm fed up with it... and am striving to beat it.

It is time we wake up though, this is not new to AB, it is just their latest tactic. We keep buying it, though... so it is our fault.

I see this never ending post about buying software... I see more and more "Integrated Architecture" sales propaganda from AB showing up in the Inbox everyday. I see never ending price increases... I see them not really making (engineering) any technology but buying half baked technology... I see poor engineering... I see poor performing products... I see poor engineering support... I see them CHARGING for that POOR engineering support... I see them stiffing over the SIs who actually have decent engineering skills and fight to make AB’s product work in applications... I see them stiffing over end users by promising the world and delivering a square foot of swamp land...

They don't want you to be able to breathe without them having a hand it.

And if there is nobody better than the factory, I would gladly give references on how good the engineering is from AB, whether it be their product in general, their engineering services for programming and startup or their in-service support.

1 = good engineering, 0 = bad engineering.

AB engineering = 0.

It is time for things to change, and it is up to us and how we spend our budgets to change it. Not only that the SIs need to start recommending a better product to the end users... because the SIs know there are better products out there.

B

 

It is up to AB to look out for AB's interests. That is the same thing as with any other business that wants to continue in business.

As for price increases, the only price increases of note I have seen, beyond what one would expect, is for products that are all but obsolete anyway. That is just the way it is. In some respects they have become more competitive in a lot of areas.

I do not blame them one bit for making it easier to integrate their other products into their communication architecture. How can that possibly hurt anyone else? This is a good thing for AB users. I happen to like the idea that I will be able to setup an I/O network faster, and with far less trial and error, and calls to tech support. That was one of the biggest gripes from AB users over the last few years. The RSNetworx product was just abominable, and AB never denied it. It took them a long while to come up with something better, but they have finally gotten around to a decent and readily usable solution.

I have to admit some of the things they do make me a little crazy, because they release stuff that works OK, but not real well, then try and fix it on the fly. But, that is just how they do things, and if you are fool enough to buy something from them before it has been out for 6 months or a year, you deserve whatever bad things happen to you. That is not much different than other providers.

 

I know there are some SIs that pay commissions to reps for business they generate. Maybe the SIs need to make a deal with their AB distributor to send business their way instead of to AB. It is, after all, all about the money! If you cannot understand that, you need to take some real basic business and economics classes.

 

So Bob, are blackmail, bribery and theft are OK as well because "it is all about the money"?

I don't blame AB for commissioning their sales channel at all, it is how they are choosing to go to market. I am choosing NOT to recommend AB products to customers from here on out. AB wants SI's to help sell and support their products, but in the next breath will step in and undercut the SI's who are helping them sell more product. Because of this I will also choose to recommend "anything but AB" to customers.

Choices are wonderful thing. No question I may lose some AB business in the short term, but there are plenty of other products out there I can and will use..... Many/most are better technically and price wise, they just don’t have the marketing engine behind them.

Goodbye AB... I should have said that a long time ago.

JB

 

> It is up to AB to look out for AB's interests. That is the same thing as with any other business that wants to continue in business. <

See, Bob, that’s where you’re wrong. AB’s interests should be its customers while looking out for themselves--without customers they aren’t a business--but at the root of it AB only cares for their interests. Their customers are SIs, OEMs, and end users, etc., so either they take care of them all or??? Well nothing happens, because we continue to let the problem propagate.

> As for price increases, the only price increases of note I have seen, beyond what one would expect, is for products that are all but obsolete anyway. That is just the way it is. In some respects they have become more competitive in a lot of areas. <

Well, I will admit this is more of a distributor issue rather than an AB issue, but the AB issue is that it is a monopoly in my area (not sure how it is in other areas). But we have one and only one distributor that will sell to us. A few years ago, I called a distributor that is an hour away vs. local, and they told me that they couldn’t sell to me, because I was outside of their territory and if they did then AB could cut them off.

> I do not blame them one bit for making it easier to integrate their other products into their communication architecture. How can that possibly hurt anyone else? <

Glad you asked Bob, and I can’t blame AB either, it is quite ingenious for them to target engineers who don’t know any better. I mean managers, purchasing agents, and those engineers who haven’t used real products are really digging it! The way it hurts is when AB says a Kinetix 6000 CLX motion system will work in a certain application, then when it doesn’t 6 months later you have wasted a lot of time and you send them packing (actually they gave up). And the system was never really sold on it working in the application it was sold on fuzzy dice like auto tags and one name brand one source, interconnect ability and integrated architecture. You know... the stuff you’ve obviously already bought into. So I guess the easy integration is great if you don’t have a difficult application or don’t care if it works, but with all of the manufacturing of commodity products going to China...

I have never, repeat never, had an application that AB sold that 1) wasn’t based on straight out lies or vagueness, 2) didn’t work worth a nickel and had to pay someone else to fix it or fix it myself, 3) had to be taken out because it didn’t work, or 4) had AB engineers on site for months or years to get it to remotely work.

So I have plenty of specific examples of where they fall short and continue to fall short... so you can speak in all kinds of vagueness here... or start stating specifically why it is great.

> This is a good thing for AB users. I happen to like the idea that I will be able to setup an I/O network faster, and with far less trial and error, and calls to tech support. That was one of the biggest gripes from AB users over the last few years. The RSNetworx product was just abominable, and AB never denied it. It took them a long while to come up with something better, but they have finally gotten around to a decent and readily usable solution.
>
> I have to admit some of the things they do make me a little crazy, because they release stuff that works OK, but not real well, then try and fix it on the fly. But, that is just how they do things, and if you are fool enough to buy something from them before it has been out for 6 months or a year, you deserve whatever bad things happen to you. That is not much different than other providers. <

Well, Bob it sounds like you are willing to admit a little of their fault... and no I’m not fool enough to try it the day it comes out (point in case RSView ME/SE wasn’t a viable product until V3.1... so who is the poor soul that they tested V1 and V2 on? SE still isn’t a viable product from what I have been told by those with extremely large systems. (Logix 5000 didn’t really become that great until V13... which I’m still on since I’m not fool enough to buy into 15 or 16 yet).

> I know there are some SIs that pay commissions to reps for business they generate. Maybe the SIs need to make a deal with their AB distributor to send business their way instead of to AB. It is, after all, all about the money! If you cannot understand that, you need to take some real basic business and economics classes. <

Yeah, and maybe the SIs can sell their soul to the devil while they are at it. I strongly suggest SIs and AB distributors to try what Bob suggests and see how long it takes for the AB threats to come down to the distributors (see monopoly point above). I have known (and still know) SIs who will cater to the end user and provide nothing but AB, but AB will still come in and underbid it (sell it for less than the SI can buy the AB parts) just so they can have it... even though all of the hardware was going to be AB... the $6000 software packages were still going to be required to be purchased... the protection racket... oh I mean service contract will still be required... and they still stomp the mom and pops who built AB for them... yeah that's what I said.

Thanks Curt… http://www.control.com/thread/1026236476#1026236510 You’re onto it! Thanks JB (Below...)

BTW I am an end user... usually we are the last ones to feel the pain... or the first, depending on how you look at it.

B

 

I work for a SI, and have for more than 15 years. We use a lot of AB. I have NEVER heard of AB undercutting a SI. In fact, most of the time when AB beats us on a project they are at much higher cost. The end users just feel more comfortable with the AB group doing it, rather than someone they never heard of.

We even get referrals from AB.

As for your previous suggestion that you have never had a project that had AB products in it that worked, I would suggest perhaps the problem was not AB but the guys that originally specified things. We often get specs in that call for certain requirements and we match the hardware and software to those requirements, only later finding out that the real requirements are substantially different than what we were told up front. We can only quote what we know about.

More than once AB has told us they do not have a suitable product for some project we were contemplating. They do not want to get into a big mess down the road either.

That does not mean I do not get frustrated with them now and then. They are not perfect, and a lot of their products are not quite ready for prime time when released.