Dear Colleagues,

I have been asked to give (pro gratis) advice on an unusual measurement problem:

Some Hungarian archeologists are trying to locate the triple-casket of Attila the Hun (445-53 A.D.) by the use of ultra-sensitive remote detectors. I know that our colleagues in the mining and oil exploration fields do have some super-sensitive sensors and so do our colleagues dealing with mines in the military, but this measurement could still be beyond the capabilities of their sensors for the following reasons.

The gold and silver inner coffins have been placed inside a steel casket, so in this measurement, we have to contend with a magnetic barrier. Another problem is that the river Tisza was rerouted to flow over the grave of Attila
in order to protect the memorabilia buried with him (including the sword of the "Scourge of God", which gave a ruddy glow in the dark).

So, I am not overly optimistic that we have the technology to do this, but "one never knows." On the other hand, if some of you knew a way and the
casket was found, it would resolve the 1500 years old question of who the Hungarians are, where did we and our kinless language came from?

Have a nice weekend,

Béla G. Lipták, P.E., Consultant and editor
84 Old N. Stamford Rd., Stamford, CT. 06905-3961
Tel: 203-357-7614, Fax: 203-325-3922
E-Mail: [email protected]
http://hometown.aol.com/liptakbela/myhomepage/index.html

 

At 09:34 18/04/00 -0400, Béla G. Lipták wrote:
<clip>
>Some Hungarian archeologists are trying to locate the triple-casket of Attila
>the Hun (445-53 A.D.) by the use of ultra-sensitive remote detectors. I know
>that our colleagues in the mining and oil exploration fields do have some
>super-sensitive sensors and so do our colleagues dealing with mines in the
>military, but this measurement could still be beyond the capabilities of
>their sensors for the following reasons.

I wouldn't dismiss these types of sensors without investigating them further. I did a little bit of exploration geophysics quite a few years ago, and we used magnetometers which detected magnetic anomalies, and electromagnetic sensors (which used low frequency radio waves) to detect differences in conductivity. You would then need to combine the results from both of these surveys to get useful information.

Sensors used for exploration geophysics tend to be intended to detect large masses at a long distance, while metal detectors (used for
detecting land mines among other things) tend to be intended to detect very small masses at a close distance. I suspect that if this problem can be solved at all, then it has already been extensively addressed by archeologists. Perhaps your friends just don't have the right contacts with the universities which have the sort of budgets which can support using this type of equipment. Eastern European academics don't tend to have much money to spend. Perhaps someone could suggest some appropriate contacts for your
friends.

>The gold and silver inner coffins have been placed inside a steel casket, so
>in this measurement, we have to contend with a magnetic barrier.

I suspect that the steel casket (actually more likely to have been iron rather than steel in that era) has long since rusted away. That's too bad, as the iron would probably have been easier to detect (using magnetic sensors) than gold or silver which would require other means. If there is a substantial amount of gold or silver in the casket, rather than just gold or
silver leaf over wood, then perhaps an electro-magnetic sensor which detects conductivity differences may work.

If you don't have a pretty good idea of where to search though, I think your friends are just going to turn up a lot of old cars, not to
mention 55 year old land mines and artillery shells.

>Another
>problem is that the river Tisza was rerouted to flow over the grave of Attila
>in order to protect the memorabilia buried with him (including the sword of
>the "Scourge of God", which gave a ruddy glow in the dark).

Even worse, the river may have washed away the grave.

>So, I am not overly optimistic that we have the technology to do this, but
>"one never knows." On the other hand, if some of you knew a way and the
>casket was found, it would resolve the 1500 years old question of who the
>Hungarians are, where did we and our kinless language came from?
<clip>
I used to work with quite a few Hungarians and learned a few words of the language, but none of them were the sort of words that I really ought to repeat.


**********************
Michael Griffin
London, Ont. Canada
[email protected]
**********************

 

At 14:50 19/04/00 -0400 in an off list reply, you wrote:
>That's too bad, as the iron would probably have been easier to detect (using
>magnetic sensors)

>Dear M. Griffin:
>wouldn't the sensors still sense the ferric and ferrous oxides in the soil
>(i.e. the rust left behind by the iron coffin??) I don't know myself, but
>this is one of the more interesting questions I've seen on this list.
<clip>

Yes, I believe that a magnetometer should detect oxides (and sulphides) of iron, after all that is how iron is normally present in nature. However there may not be much left at the location of interest. The iron compounds could have been transported away by the chemical action of the water - and I imagine there would be a lot of water available under a river. The total amount of iron involved is fairly small, so it wouldn't have to be dispersed very far to become fairly diffused. *However* the idea that the iron would have been dispersed is an assumption on *my* part which may be unjustified. I also can't really justify my assumption that the chemical environment is an oxidising one. I now think I was too quick to dismiss the possibility of detecting the iron with a magnetometer.

I have had an additional thought as well. If the site is still under the river (does the river Tisza move about?) after 1500 years then perhaps
the problem is more akin to detecting sea mines than geological deposits or land mines (or old coins). I believe that some types of sonar will penetrate sediment to some degree. I don't know to what depth it may be effective or how deep the grave may have been. Also I don't know if magnetic mine detection is still used.

Perhaps an additional line of investigation would be to contact someone who knows about detecting bottom layed sea mines.

Also, does anyone know if the offshore petroleum pipeline business does anything like this to find pipelines buried in sediment? This is
another possibility to pursue.



**********************
Michael Griffin
London, Ont. Canada
[email protected]
**********************