Hello everyone.

Our existing HMI is very old, not known software running on DOS. This system is used for building management (HVAC, Cleanrooms, and Energy). This system is communicating with 170(yes, 170), DDCs (each have 16 Inputs and 16 Outputs, not all I/O are in use). Number of tags: 6500 estimated. These DDCs (made by local Israeli producer - "Control Application" - www.ddc.co.il), communicate via RS-232/485.
The existing system is quite stable, but since there will be no support for DOS applications, we must move on.

We are now doing some researches regarding this issue. We are familiar with the known HMIs such as WonderWare, Cimplicity, RSView, Citect and more.

Our intention is to upgrade the DDCs, to a TCP/IP type, using an OPC protocol.

We have some thinking, to make a future connection of other types of PLCs (known ones such as: Siemens S7 and S5, GE 9030, Omron, Allen Bradley and more.

We have in mind, to build the system to work in Client/Server architecture.

Our question is:
Does anyone here is experienced with such a large number of field devices?
All Vendors promise that their product is the most suitable. What are the real life facts regarding this situation?

 

Why would you want to do that? Mixing a bunch of alphabet soup acronyms together is not always the best way to solve a problem. I think you might find that ethernet capable PLCs are generally going to be kind of pricey, particularly if you only need 16 I/O at each location.

> We have some thinking, to make a future connection of other types of PLCs
> (known ones such as: Siemens S7 and S5, GE 9030, Omron, Allen Bradley and
> more.
>
> We have in mind, to build the system to work in Client/Server architecture.

I'd suggest maybe looking into using some form of remote I/O to put in place of each DDC, connected to one or more PLCs. I would not want to have to communicate with 170 PLCs of any brand. Just too easy for something to get messed up along the way.

> Our question is:
> Does anyone here is experienced with such a large number of field devices?

I'm sure there is.

> All Vendors promise that their product is the most suitable. What are the
> real life facts regarding this situation?

They are in fact telling the truth as they see it. Most of the time, all the products work about as well, and have similar capabilities.

 

1. Do you intend to REPLACE all these DDCs, or is it that you will somehow UPGRADE them by adding a TCP/IP port, etc?

2. Is there no Windows HMI available for these controllers?

Maybe we can help.

Zvi

 

Hi YO,

I have checked the www.ddc.co.il homepage, and I must say that it looks not so good for your application.

The DDC seems to be a proprietary controller that communicates via proprietary protocols.
RS485 and TCP/IP does not assure that you can communicate with it.

You have four options:

1. Use the vendors proprietary HMI software package that runs under Win NT.

2. Ask the vendor if they can provide an OPC server, so that you can use a standard HMI package (if they cant deliver one, then I think that no one else can).

3. Upgrade all DDC's to a version with an open protocol (they say that it can be delivered with this option).

4. Exchange all DDC's for something else with a more open architecture.

Finally, I would reconsider to upgrade to TCP/IP. It does not guarantee that you can communicate with the DDC's.

 

Thank you all.

The vendor has a new generation of these DDCs. The old one (that we have) would not run properly on a WIN HMI.
It is possible to switch to new DDCs, and at the same time use the old LOGIC and by that save time (of tests) and money for pogramming.

I personally think that the overall cost of replacing the DDCs to PLCs would finally be cheeper, because of the fact that one PLC can replace 10 DDCs easily.

The vendors HMI is not of a standart type, and cannot run in a client/server arch., and the data structure is not standart (such as an SQL for exmpl). this is why we prefer no to use it.

If anyone knows someone with similar conflicts I would be more than happy to be in touch with.

 

There is a product that handles this scenerio well Cimplicity Machine Edition from GEFanuc. This system was designed from a non-plc manufacturer that was bought up by GE (TCP). The system was designed to be able to communicate with as many different PLCs as possible. GE is still following this policy and is adding new drivers. Another product that they have is fx Manager which allows version control over a network to basically any plc or pc on a file by file basis. These files can be backed up, verified or loaded on a time or demand basis. Something to consider when there are many plc and programs (as well as programmers).

 

For the new HMI you will need to either obtain or develop the code that can communicate with the controllers and also the chosen HMI. To do this, you will need the documentation on the protocol. Most HMIs will provide a development kit for such work and with our "HMI" the information you will
need comes out of the box. We can develop the interface with the loan of equipment. In addition, Vsystem supports video frames, useful for remote viewing and security. The viewing and recording is integrated with the regular data.

Best regards,

Peter

Peter Clout
Vista Control Systems, Inc.
176 Central Park Square
Los Alamos, NM 87544-4031
(505) 662-2484
FAX (505) 662-3956
[email protected]
http://www.vista-control.com

 

A good place to start would be to look at Indusoft-some of the best most cost effective HMI/SCADA technology available with 140+ drivers. This software is as powerful as all the packages you are looking at, at significantly less money with excellent support.

I have used Indusoft, WinCC, and most others. Our company is not affiliated with Indusoft.

 

Dear Mr Yo

It seems you have softPLC architecture now with
existing installations & as you rightly said it
must be running very well.
Your I/O modules which is working on RS485 must
have any of the OPTO-22 protocols like Optomux,
Pmaux.

I suggest you must look at the product from
Nematron , U.S.A/U.K www.nematron.com, they are
in the field SOFTPLC/INDUSTRIAL PC & DDC from
last 12/14 years & it would meet your requirement
very satisfactorily with integrated database for
control & HMI.

Very Stable & reliable.

Jari
[email protected]