Hey All,

We are currently looking at a path for which we should start upgrading our PLCs on our site. We currently have AB PLC5s a few old TI305 and some other TI stuff.

We are trying to work out which way would be best for us between ControlLogix and Quantum. If anyone has any pros and cons between the two that they could share it would be much appreciated.

 

In my opinion you should upgrade the PLC 5, of course, with ControlLogix 5000 and TI with Schneider PLC. Naturally, Quantum or Premium or M340 depend on the size of TI to be upgraded.

To me it is better to have both PLC's brand even if I prefer Modicon at all.

It's difficult to list all points for which you should prefer Schneider to Rockwell.

What your doubts are? What your priorities?

Redundancy?
Field bus connections?
Communication with other systems?
Software interface?
Price?

 

As a machine builder, I would no-quote a job if asked to use Quantum. If I were spec'ing machinery for in house use, I would not accept equipment containing a Quantum (or other Schneider/Modicon PLC). See my comments on their software at this previous control.com thread: http://www.control.com/thread/1026232542#1026250317

The only scenario under which I can see choosing Quantum is if you already have a lot of Modicon PLCs. Your site apparently doesn't. The upgrade path for PLC-5 is ControlLogix. The upgrade path for TI is Siemens. I don't really like Siemens' software either, but at least it doesn't take a Ph.D. in game theory to determine which software product to order.

Bear in mind that the Quantum PLC is nearly as out of date as the PLC-5. The M340 PAC is the new guy on the block. I think. Hard to tell from Telemecanique's website. And where does Premium fit in?

On paper, I'm not sure that the ControlLogix has any features the Quantum doesn't, and vice versa. But the paper specs are misleading. If you can't figure out how to implement a feature it doesn't really help you that the data sheet has a check mark.

Incidentally, I haven't even HEARD of a new application with Modicon-anything in the last five years. Since I'm a machine builder, I go to a lot of different plants and see a lot of different things. The only thing end users seem to spec these days is Rockwell or Siemens.

You can flip through various magazines to double check me. Control Engineering, Control Design, Design News, Entertainment Engineering, InTech, Machine Design, Material Handling Product News, Modern Material Handling, Motion Systems Design, Packaging Digest, Product Design And Development... Virtually no mention of Quantum. There are enough ads and press releases to assure me that Telemecanique is in business in the U.S. But I turned up exactly one article mentioning a new application. The 05/2007 Control Engineering that mentions an application with both ControlLogix and Quantum. In Iraq.

I can't think of any PLC vendor I wouldn't prefer over Modicon at this point. B&R, Beckhoff, AutomationDirect.com, Mitsubishi, GE Fanuc, etc. For small-to-medium you can use stuff from Wago, Turck, etc.

Upgrading from PLC-5s to ControlLogix is much easier than going to Quantum or anything else. There's a tool for converting old programs. You can leave the old I/O racks in place and run them from a new ControlLogix CPU. You won't require as much re-training of your people who "speak" Allen-Bradley.

No, I don't work for Rockwell Automation. I don't especially even like them. Still, from a market perspective it's the easy choice. From a technology standpoint they are as good or better than anything else.

-James Ingraham

 

I don't work for Modicon either, but I have been working with Quantum, Premium, Momentum and M340 for the last 10 years and here I am. Not so bad after fighting with the nightmare that you describe in such an incredible tone. Honestly, I don't think the products are so different now. But if you prefer programming AutomationDirect as in the old times (the same ladder logic used on modsoft), I suppose it is because it results easier to you. For some projects this may be true, but using ST or SFC is really useful in many cases.

I think this discussion can be very long and really interesting, because all of us have different approaches and experiences in the field, although it is not very easy to discuss the subject in this format.

 

aggattapauer, slightly edited: "In my opinion you should upgrade the PLC 5 with ControlLogix 5000 and TI with Schneider PLC... To me it is better to have both PLC's brand even if I prefer Modicon at all."

I don't understand. You want to stock multiple spares, deal with more suppliers, lose out on quantity discounts, double your training costs, double your engineering time, double your software time (maybe tenfold, actually, since there aren't many people that are equally proficient in both Allen-Bradley style and Modicon style), have multiple different drawings to interpret, etc. What is the upside to having multiple brands?

-James Ingraham

 

James, I'd be starving now if I didn't make new Modicon applications. So now you've READ that at least someone is making new Modicon applications.

Your complaint about finding technical info on the Schneider web site's is valid though. I have a very hard time finding what I need there too. But I have the same difficulty with the AB, GE, Siemens web sites. The web site designers, and the managers who direct the designs, seem to have no clue who the audience of their sites is.

I don't much care for many of the Automation Direct products, but AD sure knows how to make a first-class web site.

 

Miguel Lage: "I have been working with Quantum, Premium, Momentum and M340 for the last 10 years and here I am. Not so bad after fighting with the nightmare that you describe in such an incredible tone."

Glad to hear it. But I have some questions/comments.
1) Are you in North America? I can imagine that the picture is different elsewhere.
2) Ten years ago Modicon wasn't such a mess.
3) If you started with Modicon 10 years ago and kept with it, I can imagine it's not nearly as bad as if you were starting today.

"Honestly, I don't think the products are so different now."

Perhaps you're right. But considering that I can't even figure out what to look at in Modicon's line-up (or even which web site to go to!) it's hard to tell. My problems with Modicon are about supply-chain and market acceptance, not so much the technical issues.

"But if you prefer programming AutomationDirect as in the old times (the same ladder logic used on modsoft), I suppose it is because it results easier to you."

Not a fan of AutomationDirect.com's (i.e. Koyo) PLCs either. We used them once, and ripped it off the machine before it shipped. I'd still take them over Modicon.

"For some projects this may be true, but using ST or SFC is really useful in many cases."

Agreed. Of course, Logix has ST, SFC, and FBD. I prefer Logix for nearly all applications. It scales fairly well with FlexLogix, CompactLogix, and ControlLogix. For the super-small projects Logix doesn't fit too well, and I might look at AutomationDirect.com.

"I think this discussion can be very long and really interesting."

Great! Everyone else seems to think I should just shut up.

"because all of us have different approaches and experiences in the field."

That's why I bother posting. I'm not sure I've ever actually helped anyone on Control.com, but I know that reading other people's posts has helped me.

"although it is not very easy to discuss the subject in this format."

Sure it is! All discussions on Internet message boards are informative, open discussions in which all parties respect each other's positions.

-James Ingraham
Sage Automation, Inc.

 

The comment made about the Quantum being out dated is rubbish. Even with other manufacturers releasing new PLCs long after the Quantum, its still right up the with performance and capability.

Also its new CPU runs on Unity, so it'll be here for quite some years to come. It's unfortunate that Schneider is not big in North America, but it certainly is very big in the rest of the world. In South Africa I wouldn't touch anything else because of service and stock issues and in some cases inferior products.

Also the branding issue was resolved in the beginning of the year. All the products from MG, Tele, Modicon are called Schneider-Electric products.

 

OK. Let's continue. I only hope somebody else is interested in our discussion, and I fully agree with you that it's good to write when you think that it can help someone.

I am not in North America, I'm in Spain.

But I don't understand why it makes a difference to work with Modicon living here or there. I suppose you think that we can get better assistance from the supplier, but this is not really true, I'm afraid.

The point that surprises me more is when you say that 10 years ago it might be easier to work with Modicon. Of course you need to make some decisions by yourself or with little help from the supplier. But after that, you get a good product and a good programming software, talking only about PLCs. I think that it's much easier to work with Unity and M340/Premium/Quantum than it was formerly with Modsoft and Quantum/Compact.

I think that the main difference in our case is that I work for a company that has 4 plants in Spain. (I was debating with myself about considering the plants as "big" or "medium" in size, because it depends on what you mean by that). That is why one of the main reasons to use a brand or the other is the need of a standard material that can be used for many functions and easily substituted and reprogrammed. I would like to have the chance to use different PLCs for different projects, but in our plants this would be very difficult to cope with for the maintenance people.

Maybe the problem is that in this moment, there is a lot of very good possible solutions for every project. I can't change from Modicon to Siemens or whatever in the short term, by it is very unusual to finish one project and not to feel that you could have used a different CPU, a different distribution for the I/O, or any other different combination of factors to reach the same objective.

 

Kirkc: "I'd be starving now if I didn't make new Modicon applications."

That's quite interesting. Can I ask what industry you're in? Our machines are material handling, mostly gantry robots. We're spread across most industries, with some large exceptions like automotive, semi-conductor, and medical. Printing, converting, and pipe manufacturing are our biggies. We happen to be located in the heart of petro-chemical (South East Texas), so I hear about those applications even though my company doesn't deal much with them.

Paraphrased: "I have the same difficulty finding technical info on the AB, GE, Siemens web sites as on Schneider's."

Yeah. I can't say there's a web site that I love.

"I don't much care for many of the Automation Direct products, but AD sure knows how to make a first-class web site."

Yes. I like being able to find all parts, with pricing, immediately.

If only all web sites were as easy to use as Amazon.com.

-James Ingraham

 

I am a little curious as to how the Modicon comes into play at all, since you don't have an installed base. Standardizing on a particular brand, to me, is very important if you are an "End User" in order to keep training and inventory costs to a minimum. I still have a half dozen PLC-5's to upgrade yet, and have gone the ControlLogix route and have been very happy. While there is a tool for translating, be prepared to use it simply as a starting point in order to get the most benefit from the platform.

I have not done a Modicon in quite a few years so am not qualified to place any recommendation on that platform. Local support is one of the key reasons for our standardizing on A-B, more so than the actual platform (competing among major players).

 

A good PLC is almost anything now, I don't know a bad brand. I have Omron, Modicon, AB, and Wonderware keeps all my sites in sync over 200 + mile links. Use what PLC you have local support for. I had a failure and one of my support companys drove parts to the nearest airport and I meet the plane. Service is what matters.

Cheers Jas.

 

Miguel Lage: "I am not in North America, I'm in Spain, but I don't understand why it makes a difference to work with Modicon living here or there."

Not from a TECHNICAL standpoint, or even a support standpoint, but from a MARKET standpoint. I would have to fight most of my customers to use ANYTHING besides Allen-Bradley. So why fight? That also means that my customers have their supply-chain straightened out and their personnel trained.

"The point that surprises me more is when you say that 10 years ago it might be easier to work with Modicon."

7 years ago I had a Modicon distributor. Now I can't even figure out who my distributor is. I was at the Schneider booth at Pack Expo in Las Vegas in 2005. Talking to their drives guys, I complained that I couldn't get anyone at Schneider to deal with me. He said, "We'll fix that," took my business card... and I haven't heard from Schneider since. Schneider's strategy has changed several times. First Concept, then Unity. Somewhere in there they bought Steeplechase and Think & Do and that was their PC-based control strategy. Then they sold those off to Phoenix Contact.

"Of course you need to make some decisions by yourself or with little help from the supplier."

My point is that this is do-able, if not fun, with Siemens, Allen-Bradley, and others, but a bloody nightmare with Schneider.

"But after that, you get a good product and a good programming software, talking only about PLCs."

I don't have a problem with their hardware. I don't think Modsoft, ProWorx, or Concept were very good. I haven't used Unity, so I will have to defer.

"I think that it's much easier to work with Unity and M340/Premium/Quantum than it was formerly with Modsoft and Quantum/Compact."

Again, that's TECHNICAL. Looking at the website, I can't figure out which software I would choose or why. So I never get to technical issues.

As for the fact that you have 4 plants all standardized on Modicon, that seems perfectly reasonable to me. Especially if it was chosen years ago. I wouldn't arbitrarily change working systems.

"Maybe the problem is that in this moment, there is a lot of very good possible solutions for every project."

I agree. Where I seem to disagree with other posters is that I don't think Schneider/Modicon PLCs are a good solution. So far I haven't seen anyone jump to my defense. Which implies I'm further out on this than I thought.

-James Ingraham

 

chud: "The comment made about the Quantum being out dated is rubbish."

The comment was not, "Quantum is out-dated." It was "the Quantum PLC is nearly as out of date as the PLC-5." According to PLCDev, Quantum was released in 1994, and the PLC-5 is a good 8 years older. http://www.plcdev.com/plc_timeline In my view, when choosing a system today, a system that is 14 years old is nearly as out of date as one that's 22 years old.

"Even with other manufacturers releasing new PLCs long after the Quantum, it's still right up the with performance and capability."

Also true of the PLC-5.

"Also its new CPU runs on Unity, so it'll be here for quite some years to come."

That IS a spot where Quantum beats out PLC-5 for long-term maintainability... sort of. PLC-5 is programmed in RSLogix 500, not 5000 which is the newer software. Still, RSLogix 500 is still being developed and supported.

The fact that different CPUs can or can't be programmed with different programming software is one of the things I don't like about Modicon PLCs. You can't start using Unity on your older Quantums, even with a firmware upgrade. You have to buy a new CPU. We had this same issue with Compact 984 and Concept.

"It's unfortunate that Schneider is not big in North America, but it certainly is very big in the rest of the world."

I'm not disappointed at all that Schneider isn't bigger here. I've got enough flavors to deal with already.

"In South Africa I wouldn't touch anything else because of service and stock issues and in some cases inferior products."

I therefore stipulate that my comments apply only to North America, and certainly NOT to South Africa.

"Also the branding issue was resolved in the beginning of the year. All the products from MG, Tele, Modicon are called Schneider-Electric products."

It hasn't been resolved here. There's nothing (as far as I know) with Schneider Electric stamped on the side of it. Automation stuff, like PLCs and drives, are Telemecanique, while electrical stuff like circuit-breaker panels are Square D. Of course, that's THIS week. I'm not going to declare the Schneider-name-game over until it's been stable for at least a year.

-James Ingraham

 

James, your information about which of the original Modicon Quantum controllers can be FIELD UPGRADED to Unity is not entirely correct. The existing 140CPU43412A and 140CPU53414A controllers can be upgraded to run the latest Unity IEC61131-3 software via a firmware update that is included with the Unity Pro Software. The other processors in the original line 140CPU113xx and 140CPU213xx do not have enough memory or processing power to handle the Unity OS. Schneider Electric provides a "Product Upgrade" service that will allow the customer to trade in an existing controller and purchase a newer model.

The Unity Pro software provides both Concept and PL7 compatibility via an application project import.

Existing users of the 984LL programming packages (Modsoft, ProWORX Nxt and ProWORX32) have the option of having their existing programs converted to a 984LL Unity equivalent. This is provided by the Schneider Electric Services group.

 

Follow the path of least resistance.

I would upgrade the PLC-5s to ControlLogix. The TIs can be upgraded to CTI (ControlTechnology.com).

OR

You can standardise on any platform you want whether it be Siemens, Rockwell Automation, Modicon, CTI, etc. Really it does not matter - they all have technical faults and weaknesses. As the other postings have pointed out it is the intangibles like local support and service that you should look at.

"Ford" or "Chevy" - "Opel" or "SEAT" - "Holden" or "Ford" it doesn't matter where you live there are always choices!

RJ

 

Robert Willis: "James, your information about which of the original Modicon Quantum controllers can be FIELD UPGRADED to Unity is not entirely correct..."

Noted. Thanks for the info.

-James Ingraham

 

Well to answer the original post, I would look at the technology you are using or thinking about using first, such as your communication backbone, then see what platform works best for you. Sure, both platforms are on par with each other. You just have to decide what path you want to take. Look at all the cost and headaches you will run into. I would look starting with who gives you the best support, then ask them for suggestions.

 

James,

I must take issue with this statement:

"No, I don't work for Rockwell Automation. I don't especially even like them. Still, from a market perspective it's the easy choice. From a technology standpoint they are as good or better than anything else."

I agree with much of what you state regarding inventory, training, etc. And I totally respect the situation you appear to be in, in that you must cater to a customer base that uses Rockwell.

But to actually beleive that Rockwell offers technology that is "as good or better than anything else" is absurd. There are many manufacturers out there that offer much better technology at a far lower price. Rockwell is argueably the most accepted platform in North America, but I am sure you will be hard-pressed to find anyone out there with an open and objective mind that will agree with your perspective regarding Rockwell technology.

As for Modicon/Schneider, I must agree that they are in total disarry, but I would recommend anything that is IEC-61131-3 compliant since your training will be minimal and only be required once.

Okay, I'm off the soap box...

-Dave Zimbrich

 

I got to tell you. With the introduction of version 16 of Contrologix, I see no PLC platform that is better or more cost effective for the general control market.

There are some niche products that are better for their little piece but for general control products, I can't think of anyone in the US who has a line that is substantially better.

Cost wise they are a whole lot more competitive than many people believe, esp[ecially at the OEM and integrator level. Not the cheapest, but often surprisngly competitve.