GE 9FA machine, when Unit on standstill and need to run LO/ HO for alignment work under test permit, how other users are proceeding?

GE 9FA machine, when Unit on standstill and need to run LO/ HO for alignment work under test permit, how other users are proceeding?
I think need to start cooldown on with turning gear motor (electrical) breaker must be in off condition as there is no other start button in HMI or DCS side. can other users please be confirm and if following other procedure please share.
Thanks,
 
MOST sites will have developed an SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) for this purpose that details how to start one of the Aux. L.O. Pumps and one of the Aux. Hyd. Pumps while the unit is off COOLDOWN and at zero speed using Logic Forcing (the L.O. pump needs to be started first, and the Hyd. Pump second). IF the jacking oil system uses the Aux. Hyd. Pump (via a solenoid) the procedure should also detail that, as well.

Using Logic Forcing usually requires knowledge of a password as it's not something which should be done casually by someone unfamiliar with how it works and how it can lead to damage if done improperly or with incorrect assumptions.

IF the Motor Control Center motor starters have HAND-OFF-AUTO switches that latch the HAND (or MANual) position, it is also possible to switch the Aux. L.O. Pump motor starter to HAND (or MAN) and then the Aux. Hyd. Pump motor starter to HAND (or MAN).

But, again, most of the better sites will have developed SOPs for this and other similar operations, AS WELL AS normal, day-to-day operations. (AND, most sites are loathe to share them with other sites. One thing to remember about using a shared SOP from another site is that often there are differences in auxiliaries that are very important and either don't apply or aren't accounted for in the SOP!)

Lastly, SOPs are DYNAMIC documents. What does that mean? It means that they aren't written once and never updated as site conditions or procedures or equipment change. They need to be updated as necessary--and as necessary means when a problem is identified by the people using the SOP it needs to be identified to the proper responsible supervisor(s) and the procedure needs to be reconsidered and modified with the approval of the users and the ones who identified the issue(s). Often, these reported deficiencies are just misunderstandings about equipment operation and/or procedures--and this can be a learning experience for everyone involved by reviewing the document with knowledgeable people who can address the issue(s) and everyone can understand and continue on with a better understanding of the procedure. (I can't count the number of sites I have visited that had SOPs but didn't use them--why? Because they were perceived to be incorrect (and some might have been incorrect, or were poorly written), and while they were attached to the safety documents they were ignored. So, that procedure--and by association other SOPs were deemed to be inaccurate and not used or even referred to. Such a waste of manpower, time, paper, hard drive space, and needless chatter about what to do and when. All because either no one reported the inaccuracy and the SOP wasn't updated. These things can save lives, and appendages, and eyes, and expensive equipment, and prevent unplanned outages--resulting in improved revenues (which is what these machines are all about: generating revenue (not just electricity and hot exhaust gases!).)

Best of luck!

Developing SOPs involves reading operations manuals, understanding programming (logic; sequencing; application code), and using P&IDs. Operators, technicians and even mechanical maintenance department should all be capable of at least understanding the relevant P&IDs. In all honesty--EVERY person on a site with one of these magnificent machines should have their own copies of P&IDs--and those which are littered with handwritten notes and dog-eared pages will belong to those most knowledgeable about unit systems and operation and troubleshooting. Developing SOPs is usually best left to a team of people--not just one person--with all relevant departments (Operations; Electrical and Controls; Maintenance; etc.) represented on the team. Using the Operations manuals as the starting point, and the P&IDs and programming/logic/sequencing diagrams as the base for understanding and developing the SOPs by the team is the best way of developing SOPs--and getting everyone's acceptance and understanding. It's not easy, but it's not that hard, either. And those plants/sites that do it, and do it well, are among the best-operated, best-maintained, and most profitable in the world. Full stop. Period.

I know this isn't what you asked for or wanted--but you also didn't provide enough information about the configuration of your unit(s), the control system, the MCCs, the auxiliaries, etc., for us to be of much more assistance. Every GE-design Frame 9FA IS NOT exactly like every other GE-design Frame 9FA in the world. Believe it or not; it's true. And, any procedure we could provide you SHOULD still be used and modified as necessary FOR YOUR SITE and equipment and auxiliaries, to produce your own, site-specific SOP.
 
MOST sites will have developed an SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) for this purpose that details how to start one of the Aux. L.O. Pumps and one of the Aux. Hyd. Pumps while the unit is off COOLDOWN and at zero speed using Logic Forcing (the L.O. pump needs to be started first, and the Hyd. Pump second). IF the jacking oil system uses the Aux. Hyd. Pump (via a solenoid) the procedure should also detail that, as well.

Using Logic Forcing usually requires knowledge of a password as it's not something which should be done casually by someone unfamiliar with how it works and how it can lead to damage if done improperly or with incorrect assumptions.

IF the Motor Control Center motor starters have HAND-OFF-AUTO switches that latch the HAND (or MANual) position, it is also possible to switch the Aux. L.O. Pump motor starter to HAND (or MAN) and then the Aux. Hyd. Pump motor starter to HAND (or MAN).

But, again, most of the better sites will have developed SOPs for this and other similar operations, AS WELL AS normal, day-to-day operations. (AND, most sites are loathe to share them with other sites. One thing to remember about using a shared SOP from another site is that often there are differences in auxiliaries that are very important and either don't apply or aren't accounted for in the SOP!)

Lastly, SOPs are DYNAMIC documents. What does that mean? It means that they aren't written once and never updated as site conditions or procedures or equipment change. They need to be updated as necessary--and as necessary means when a problem is identified by the people using the SOP it needs to be identified to the proper responsible supervisor(s) and the procedure needs to be reconsidered and modified with the approval of the users and the ones who identified the issue(s). Often, these reported deficiencies are just misunderstandings about equipment operation and/or procedures--and this can be a learning experience for everyone involved by reviewing the document with knowledgeable people who can address the issue(s) and everyone can understand and continue on with a better understanding of the procedure. (I can't count the number of sites I have visited that had SOPs but didn't use them--why? Because they were perceived to be incorrect (and some might have been incorrect, or were poorly written), and while they were attached to the safety documents they were ignored. So, that procedure--and by association other SOPs were deemed to be inaccurate and not used or even referred to. Such a waste of manpower, time, paper, hard drive space, and needless chatter about what to do and when. All because either no one reported the inaccuracy and the SOP wasn't updated. These things can save lives, and appendages, and eyes, and expensive equipment, and prevent unplanned outages--resulting in improved revenues (which is what these machines are all about: generating revenue (not just electricity and hot exhaust gases!).)

Best of luck!

Developing SOPs involves reading operations manuals, understanding programming (logic; sequencing; application code), and using P&IDs. Operators, technicians and even mechanical maintenance department should all be capable of at least understanding the relevant P&IDs. In all honesty--EVERY person on a site with one of these magnificent machines should have their own copies of P&IDs--and those which are littered with handwritten notes and dog-eared pages will belong to those most knowledgeable about unit systems and operation and troubleshooting. Developing SOPs is usually best left to a team of people--not just one person--with all relevant departments (Operations; Electrical and Controls; Maintenance; etc.) represented on the team. Using the Operations manuals as the starting point, and the P&IDs and programming/logic/sequencing diagrams as the base for understanding and developing the SOPs by the team is the best way of developing SOPs--and getting everyone's acceptance and understanding. It's not easy, but it's not that hard, either. And those plants/sites that do it, and do it well, are among the best-operated, best-maintained, and most profitable in the world. Full stop. Period.

I know this isn't what you asked for or wanted--but you also didn't provide enough information about the configuration of your unit(s), the control system, the MCCs, the auxiliaries, etc., for us to be of much more assistance. Every GE-design Frame 9FA IS NOT exactly like every other GE-design Frame 9FA in the world. Believe it or not; it's true. And, any procedure we could provide you SHOULD still be used and modified as necessary FOR YOUR SITE and equipment and auxiliaries, to produce your own, site-specific SOP.
Thank for your detailed updating and for your query that we have Mark VIe control system with all auxiliaries in GT are electrical motor driven even TG also electrical motor (not Hyd ratchet) with gearbox. we do not have any provision to start individual operation for the LO or Hyd oil pump but yes of course have provision to test hand operation for the said pump from MCC by keeping selector switch manually holding in hand position (hand/off/auto) selector till we need to run the pump.

My main concerned was that once cooldown is off then we do not have provision to run LO/ Hyd oil pump to run manually for any requirement. so in that case we need to keep TG motor breaker off position and run the cooldown on again or some logic forcing to be done that not to run the TG motor or both case and then cool down on for the purpose to run the Lo/Hyd oil system.
So, need to aware that on any other site what procedure they used to follow or they have option to run the oil pump from MCC/ DCS/ HMI for the period they want or other idea for better working condition.

Again that for your reply and hoping to have healthy output.

Thanks
 
ok. In such case it is not possible with normal operation staff only. we should have logic/ simulation authorized staff available during whole of alignment/ mechanical work time as oil pump are required start and stop number of time during alignment and overhauling work duration. correct?

Is it feasible to provide individual pump start/ stop provision in DCS while unit on standstill with concern of zero speed signal? if it is so then we do not required simulation staff and can be operate required oil pump.
 
As was written, it's not for us to tell you how to prepare your procedure--if for no other reason than we don't know what your staffing protocols are.

Typically, GE do not provide such screens/buttons for operators to use and so the overwhelming majority of GE-deisgn heavy duty gas turbines have no buttons on HMI screens to allow for click-and-run operations.

If there are such buttons, they would ultimately switch the motors ON and OFF using the same relay outputs which would be used to start and stop the motors via Logic Forcing. This is the NORMAL method for mechanical operations such as you are describing--using Logic Forcing to operate pump motors.

Without being able to see the programming (application code) in the Mark* VIe we can't comment on exactly what would happen if you racked out (switched off) the AC mains breaker for the turning gear motor and the selected COOLDOWN ON. Most likely, the programming will look for shaft RPM and if not found it may terminate the operation of the pump motors. Or, ... ???

As for using the DCS, unless it's also a GE Mark* VIe the chances are very low it can be used as you suggest--without wiring changes, and in my personal opinion would introduce possible knock-on effects which might be problematic and possible cause damage.

It's probably likely that GE Belfort assembled the programming (application code) of the Mark VIe controlling and protecting the unit at your site. In that case, it would be nearly impossible to predict what was done and most likely it varies from unit to unit (in other words, it's non-standard).

So, find yourself a competent and experienced person who can review the application code and work with you to understand your staffing protocol and come up with a suitable--to your site--procedure. You can also choose to engage GE to help you develop the screens and buttons you feel you require at your site to meet your staffing protocols.

There have been some turbine control HMIs which were provided with HMI buttons for simpler motor operations. Sometimes these weren't on every HMI, only ones intended to be used for such operations as you are describing. (Sometimes they are called "engineering workstations.")

Operators can be and have been trained many places to do this (use Logic Forcing properly and effectively to support mechanical operations). Some would argue it's good for operators to receive more training and knowledge--and experience. Learning to read and use P&IDs, and the Operations Manuals, and working with other disciplines to develop SOPs (Standard Operating Procedures). They are and would be still dynamic documents, subject to modification and refinement as per continuous improvement guidelines.

Best of luck!
 
As was written, it's not for us to tell you how to prepare your procedure--if for no other reason than we don't know what your staffing protocols are.

Typically, GE do not provide such screens/buttons for operators to use and so the overwhelming majority of GE-deisgn heavy duty gas turbines have no buttons on HMI screens to allow for click-and-run operations.

If there are such buttons, they would ultimately switch the motors ON and OFF using the same relay outputs which would be used to start and stop the motors via Logic Forcing. This is the NORMAL method for mechanical operations such as you are describing--using Logic Forcing to operate pump motors.

Without being able to see the programming (application code) in the Mark* VIe we can't comment on exactly what would happen if you racked out (switched off) the AC mains breaker for the turning gear motor and the selected COOLDOWN ON. Most likely, the programming will look for shaft RPM and if not found it may terminate the operation of the pump motors. Or, ... ???

As for using the DCS, unless it's also a GE Mark* VIe the chances are very low it can be used as you suggest--without wiring changes, and in my personal opinion would introduce possible knock-on effects which might be problematic and possible cause damage.

It's probably likely that GE Belfort assembled the programming (application code) of the Mark VIe controlling and protecting the unit at your site. In that case, it would be nearly impossible to predict what was done and most likely it varies from unit to unit (in other words, it's non-standard).

So, find yourself a competent and experienced person who can review the application code and work with you to understand your staffing protocol and come up with a suitable--to your site--procedure. You can also choose to engage GE to help you develop the screens and buttons you feel you require at your site to meet your staffing protocols.

There have been some turbine control HMIs which were provided with HMI buttons for simpler motor operations. Sometimes these weren't on every HMI, only ones intended to be used for such operations as you are describing. (Sometimes they are called "engineering workstations.")

Operators can be and have been trained many places to do this (use Logic Forcing properly and effectively to support mechanical operations). Some would argue it's good for operators to receive more training and knowledge--and experience. Learning to read and use P&IDs, and the Operations Manuals, and working with other disciplines to develop SOPs (Standard Operating Procedures). They are and would be still dynamic documents, subject to modification and refinement as per continuous improvement guidelines.

Best of luck!
Thanks for your reply.

by the conversation, i understood that in some of the cases/ sites HMI were provided with motor operation button in special cases. you you can share such screen shot of provision of motor operation button on HMI or site and any issue they faced with such facility or any incident occur or it was useful?

Again thanks for your quick update.
 
No; I don’t keep such files or screenshots. I do know it has been useful to the sites where it was provided, but I also know that at least one site had issues with getting the motor(s) being operated from the HMI screen buttons to stop, and some programming modification(s) was(were) required. (Unsurprisingly, the machine was provided by GE Belfort.) Later, I learned the site had made one “unauthorized” wiring modification not disclosed to GE Belfort to one of the motor starter circuits which had an issue—but no specific details were available about why or what thinking was involved in making the wiring change.

I can tell you the HMI buttons for “manually” starting and stopping motors appeared on the HMI motor status display which is usually present on nearly every Mark* HMI.

I suggest you personally review the motor status display on every Mark* HMI at your site, and look for possible additional motor displays which might include the buttons you are so desperately seeking.

I am not a proponent of forcing logic when the turbine is running (except when the all the possible consequences of doing so are completely understood by everyone prior to doing so).Starting and stopping motors for the purpose of establishing oil pressures for mechanical and maintenance activities is routine at many sites operating GE-design turbines. Because GE doesn’t really consider mechanical or maintenance work in the design of their control systems as a necessity (sad, but true).
 
No; I don’t keep such files or screenshots. I do know it has been useful to the sites where it was provided, but I also know that at least one site had issues with getting the motor(s) being operated from the HMI screen buttons to stop, and some programming modification(s) was(were) required. (Unsurprisingly, the machine was provided by GE Belfort.) Later, I learned the site had made one “unauthorized” wiring modification not disclosed to GE Belfort to one of the motor starter circuits which had an issue—but no specific details were available about why or what thinking was involved in making the wiring change.

I can tell you the HMI buttons for “manually” starting and stopping motors appeared on the HMI motor status display which is usually present on nearly every Mark* HMI.

I suggest you personally review the motor status display on every Mark* HMI at your site, and look for possible additional motor displays which might include the buttons you are so desperately seeking.

I am not a proponent of forcing logic when the turbine is running (except when the all the possible consequences of doing so are completely understood by everyone prior to doing so).Starting and stopping motors for the purpose of establishing oil pressures for mechanical and maintenance activities is routine at many sites operating GE-design turbines. Because GE doesn’t really consider mechanical or maintenance work in the design of their control systems (sad, but true) it’s a necessity.
Thanks for your conversation, opinion, sharing your experience and of course your time too.
 
James,

Can you provide an example of what you are suggesting is written in the Operations & Maintenance Manual provided by GE Belfort?

Thanks!!!
 
WTF?

Unfortunately i do not have an example of kind subject from O&M provided by GE Belfort..

I was just asking original poster if he can get the needed informations from the O&M that GE provided to site...

Regards
James
 
By the way Original poster did not confirm if Unit has been built by GE Belfort or BHEL...


I am sayin that cause BHEL got an erection procedure where it described Preliminary and final alignement and references to the ML Drawings and other Procedures/Instructions ..

Here some notes from BHEL erection procedure for Frame9FA:*
6.6.5 Commence finally alignment of the GT to the Generator, moving the generator as the preferred option to the GT. Upon successful completion of the alignment to GE spec record alignment data. Complete installation inspection sheet.

“Final Alignment Load Shaft to Generator”



6.6.6
With the gas turbine to generator alignment complete now commence final alignment of the turning gear to generator shaft by rotation and repositioning the turning gear as necessary. Upon successful completion of the alignment to GE spec record alignment data. Complete installation inspection sheet.

“Final Alignment Turning Gear to Generator”



6.6.7
With all final alignment complete, finalize the axial retaining shim, gib key clearances and anchors locations in accordance with instruction outlined on ML 1603 & 1604 drawing instructions. Complete installation inspection sheet.

“Axial Centre line Support Clearances”



6.6.8
Finalise position of collector housing assembly and record fan blade clearance.

Complete installation inspection sheet.

“Collector Ring and Fan Blade Clearances”



6.6.9
Finalize speed pickup gap setting and install load coupling shaft guard.

Complete installation inspection sheet.

“Speed Pickup Gaps”



6.6.10
Confirm all motor to pump final alignments in accordance with appropriate vendor coupling requirements.

Complete installation inspection sheet.

Final Alignment Aux Lube Oil Pump 1.

Final Alignment Aux Lube Oil Pump 2.

Final Alignment Emergency DC Lube Oil Pump.

Final Alignment Aux Seal Oil Pump.

Final Alignment Emergency DC Seal Oil Pump.



The document refer to some inspection data sheet also ..

As we know the 9FA got LCI/LSI/SFC and i understood that original poster is now having questions on how other sites deal with preliminary and final alignment..

The best thing for Original poster to do is to contact Packager of this unit to provide The mentionned Erection procedure /instructions ..
 
Here some notes from GE9FA Installation guide:


3.14 ALIGNMENT OF GENERATOR–TO–TURBINE, COLLECTOR ASSEMBLY AND TURNING GEAR–TO–GENERATOR (MLI 0411)
Alignment will be performed as described in GE document “Basic Field Alignment Instructions” (MLI 0411). Alignment readings will be witnessed by the GE Technical Advisor. 3.14.1 The turbine and generator bases must be in a free standing condition, i.e., no off-base air, water, fuel gas, fuel oil or lube oil piping, conduit or bus duct is to be made up to the turbine and generator bases. The collector assembly and turning gear shall also be free standing with no lube oil piping wiring or conduit connected. 3.14.2 Final alignment readings will be taken in accordance with GE instructions.
Note:
The Exhaust Diffuser (MLI 0706) must be assembled to the turbine before final readings are taken. 3.14.3 Installer will final align generator to turbine, turning gear to generator, install foundation centerline keying devices and make up couplings per GE drawings. It is recommended that alignment readings be witnessed and signed off by the Owner, Installer and General Electric. (See Fig. 9).

As you can read there are some GE instructions to follow like MLI and others documents..
 
I don't think you understand the OPs question. He's not asking about alignment procedures for pumps and motors--he's asking about how to run the Aux. L.O. pump and Aux. Hyd. pump in order to facilitate rotating the turbine and/or generator shafts for aligning them. He asked if he could "disable" the turning gear motor/mechanism, then select COOLDOWN ON, and get the pumps to start and run for alignment purposes.

I have never seen detailed procedures from any packager of GE-design heavy duty gas turbines (GE, John Brown, BHEL, EGT, GE Belfort, etc.) for operating pumps for shaft alignment purposes (or for any mechanical purpose). There may be some wording to the effect of "... Start the Aux. L.O. pump and the Aux. Hyd. pump ...." but that's as much as I've ever seen. I think he gets that much--from whatever source.

USUALLY there is someone on site who is knowledgeable on auxiliary systems and the turbine control system and can get the pumps started and running for the mechanics to perform shaft alignment. It appears the OP doesn't have the experience nor does anyone on the site have that experience and they don't have a controls person (possibly provided by the company providing the mechanical/outage services) on site which can help with this endeavor. And, he (as many management people do) is assuming that the Mark* can be easily made to do this. And, it isn't that difficult using Logic Forcing--but it seems there is some kind of aversion to using Logic Forcing on the site, or to paying someone knowledgeable about using Logic Forcing to be on site when shaft alignment activity is going on.

Whatever, there's a LOT we don't know--and we could play Twenty Questions and probably get to a point where a basic procedure could be produced, but, I'm all done playing Twenty Questions because people only want to answer six or five questions and that's not enough to get the job done. (One of the questions has to be: Where does the jacking oil pressure/flow come from and how is it produced?)

The OP's question about what do other sites do has been answered: Most use Logic Forcing or the HOA switches on the motor starters. VERY FEW sites have the buttons the OP wants to find on the HMI (and we don't know if he's checked all the HMIs yet, either). A few sites have developed an SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) for establishing oil pressure(s)--which usually involve Logic Forcing.

But, I seriously doubt anyone is going to find detailed instructions for doing this in any Operations & Maintenance Manual--even one from GE Belfort. And if I'm wrong, I've been wrong before and I will be wrong again in the future. They want to have the Customer (owner/operator) to have a field service person on site--meaning a billable field service person producing revenue for the mechanical/outage service firm.

Adeus.
 
I understood clearly, what the OP was looking for
...
You misunderstood my thread...
I wrote these quotes to tell OP that there are OEM STANDARD PROCEDURE FOR ACHIEVING what is looking for...

I asked about LCI and he just replied Yes...

My post was also to telling him to ask original packager of the unit for what is looking for as we cannot provide support from here on it..

Bonsoir
James
 
Kartik.shah,

At our site we simply open the turning gear breaker and select cool down on. You'll likely get a 'turning gear trouble' alarm but its fine, you will still get lube and lift.

The turning gear breaker will be part of the LOTO for the guys with their hands on the turbine.

If you need to turn lift oil on and off multiple times and don't want to wait for the cooldown sequence to start and stop, you can leave cooldown on and cycle the lift oil solenoid breaker in the PEECC.
 
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