German and other European schematics

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Thread Starter

Curt Wuollet

Hi All

As I work with a lot of equipment from overseas manufacturers, I have noticed some common practices in their schematic drawings for large machines. Every time I think I have it all ironed out, I run into something confusing. I know they make sense, but what I got to wondering was:

Is this because of some standard, or merely custom?

Is there some resource for common practices? In English?

I will probably be working with them enough to become expert soon, but I'd like to get a leg up so I can hit the ground running.

Regards

cww
 
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Michael Griffin

If by "overseas manufacturers", you mean those based in Europe, then the standards you refer to are likely DIN (or derived from DIN).

We had a discussion on this subject on this list in October and November of 1996, and also in November of 2001. One reference that was suggested was "A Global Reference Guide for Reading Schematic Diagrams" from Allen Bradley.
This was at the time available for download from their web site. This is just a side by side comparison of common schematic symbols though, not a complete specification. It should be sufficient to allow you to read most existing
schematics though.
 
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Curt Wuollet

Hi Michael

I'll take a look for that. Actually it's not the symbols, it's the organization and general scheme. Most machines here use something like ladder diagrams. The reason this is an issue all of a sudden is that I've managed to escape from the foundry and accepted an offer at a commercial printing company. All the presses and equipment seem to be
of european origin, mostly German. In return for the blessings of a clean, air conditioned, non-hazardous workplace and a decent wage, I wish to be useful as soon as possible. It seems as if there is never an easy way in the automation biz. Considering it's all proprietary stuff, I expect acquiring information to be the biggest problem. If anyone knows of any resources, it'd sure be appreciated. I can deal with it, but it'd sure be faster with a clue or two.

Regards

cww
 
M
Here is a quick and incomplete overview - for accurate standard names, please see http://www.iec.ch, http://www.iso.ch, http://www.din.de :

IEC 60617 - drawing symbols
IEC 61175, 61346, 61255 - signal and connection references
DIN EN 61082 (maybe also IEC same number) Electronics documentation

And from another presentation off the Internet:

ISO / IEC 81714 Creation of graphical symbols
ISO 5807 Graphical symbols for flowcharts
IEC 62023 Structuring of information
IEC 62027 Preparation of parts lists
IEC 61082 Preparation of documents used in electrotechnology
IEC 62079 Preparation of instructions
IEC 60848 Preparation of sequential function charts
IEC 61360 Data element types
IEC 82045 Document management
IEC 61175 Signal designation
IEC 61666 Terminal designation
IEC 60617 / ISO 14617 Graphical symbols for diagrams

Meir
 
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Michael Griffin

> I'll take a look for that. <

I have a copy I can send you. If your contact address on your SourceForge page is current, I can e-mail it to you. It is a 390k PDF.

Siemens used to have a document called "Reading German Electrical Schematics" (or something to that effect) which they used to give away as promotional literature. Klockner Moeller used to have something similar as well. These used to be handed around between people as photo-copies of photo-copies in the pre-internet days. I am surprised that they don't offer PDF versions as downloads from their web sites (I've looked and never found them). However, I think they discarded these documents some time before they set up web sites.

> Actually it's not the symbols, it's the organization and general
> scheme. Most machines here use something like ladder diagrams. <

I work with several Italian and German machines which use DIN drawings. Once I knew what the symbols were, I had little trouble reading or modifying the drawings well enough for anything I wanted to do. Other than being turned sideways and re-arranged a bit, they are not fundamentally all that different from American style drawings (particularly the older hand drawn ones). They are just more painstaking in the details of the drawings.

You can learn a lot just by studying the machine drawings. The drawing styles tend to be much more consistent between different designers (or companies) than you would see for equivalent American (or Canadian) drawings. Once you find a good example of how something is done, you can expect to see equivalent drawings from other machines done more or less the same way.

Something that you would probably also find useful to look into is the DIN relay contact numbering system, if you are not already familiar with it. The numbering system has a pattern which can tell you what type of contact it is just by knowing the number.

> The reason this is an issue all of a sudden is that
> I've managed to escape from the foundry and accepted an offer at a
> commercial printing company. All the presses and equipment seem to be
> of european origin, mostly German. In return for the blessings of a
> clean, air conditioned, non-hazardous workplace and a decent wage, I
> wish to be useful as soon as possible. It seems as if there is never
> an easy way in the automation biz. Considering it's all proprietary
> stuff, I expect acquiring information to be the biggest problem. If
> anyone knows of any resources, it'd sure be appreciated. I can deal
> with it, but it'd sure be faster with a clue or two.
<clip>

Good luck with the printing job.
 
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Curt Wuollet

Hi Michael

Try wideopen at ecenet dot com if you could please. My day job addresses are in flux lately.

Thanx

cww
 
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Petros Mavropoulos

Hello!

My question relates to numbering in DIN schematics. Does anyone have a document describing how numbering is carried out according to DIN standards? For example, is it correct to number elements with a page number prefix e.g. 213K1 (page 213, relay 1). What is the meaning of the +, -, = symbols used (e.g. -K1, +LOCAL (for a local operation panel, etc...). I would greatly appreciate your help!
 
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Mike Virgiliev

Dear Petros,

> My question relates to numbering in DIN schematics. Does
> anyone have a document describing how numbering is carried out
> according to DIN standards? For example, is it correct to number
> elements with a page number prefix e.g. 213K1 (page 213, relay
> 1). <

I am afraid, this is old fashion style of designation.

> What is the meaning of the +, -, = symbols used (e.g. -K1,
> +LOCAL (for a local operation panel, etc...). I would greatly
> appreciate your help! <

= Plant
. Function mark
+ Location
- Device

Generally, not all of this stages are obligatory (depends on the project structure). In practice, it looks like: -1K1, where K1 means relay number 1, located at the page 1 of the project.

Mike Virgiliev
 
Dear Mike,

Thank you very much for your reply.

In case there is a document explaining the DIN numbering in some detail, I would greatly appreciate if you could let me know or email to [email protected]

Happy New Year to you and all readers of this list!
 
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I posted a list of IEC standards a while ago on this forum (most are successors of German DIN and VDE standards).

A lot of standards - each one deals with a particular aspect. The list again - in no particular order:
Preparation of documents used in electrotechnology
IEC 60617 / ISO 14617 Graphical symbols for diagrams
ISO / IEC 81714 Creation of graphical symbols
IEC 61175 Signal designation
IEC 61355 Classification and designation of documents
61360 Data element types
IEC 82045 Document management
ISO 10303-210, -212 STEP data model
IEC 62023 Structuring of information
IEC 61666 Terminal designation
IEC 60848 Preparation of sequential function charts
IEC 62027 Preparation of parts lists
IEC 62079 Preparation of instructions
IEC 61346 Structuring principles and Reference designations
ISO 5807 Graphical symbols for flowcharts

Meir
 
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