Mark V <HMI> Upgrade

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Thread Starter

Nair

We are running one Frame-6B GE gas turbine with Mark V control system and feeding power to the cement plant, we are planning to upgrade GE <HMI>. Will it worth decision? or Can we go for other upgrade?
 
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Hi Mr.

The GT Frame-6B is a big machine and needs a big HMI hard and soft.

I am faced the same problems as you. I want to know about your type of HMI. If your HMI is under DOS yes to upgrade is a worth decision.

Is your HMI under Windows NT? tel me please what type of Hards installed and type of soft installed

Thanks for your message.

My email : [email protected]
 
You really haven't given us much useful information as an HMI is not necessarily an HMI when referring to Mark V Speedtronic turbine control systems. And I don't know what an <HMI> is (unless it's new term for an <I> we've never seen here at control.com).

If you have an <I> operator interface (running IDOS and MS-DOS), you should upgrade as soon as possible. The ISA-bus ("legacy bus") ARCnet card for the <I> is no longer available and there is no other substitute or replacement. So, if it dies, and you have no spare or no other operator interface, you're out of luck until you can procure something newer.

If you have an <I>, you will likely have to upgrade your PROMs to be able to get a GE Mark V HMI (PC running MS-WinXP and CIMPLICITY), but rumor has it that GE has a new HMI which does not require a PROM upgrade, but that's been rumored to be in the works for a while so it may or may not be a reality yet. You'll have to contact GE to be sure, and that can be a problem in itself (finding out who to contact in GE!).

There are a couple of other vendors who have indicated on this site that they have Mark V HMIs which can replace the <I> or GE Mark V HMI. One of the options includes using an OPC server but that doesn't allow downloads, which are necessary for LVDT calibration or sequencing modifications.

Another vendor, CSE Engineering, Inc., had an option they claim can completely replace an <I> or a GE Mark V HMI without requiring a PROM change, and can perform downloads and configuration changes and has trending and troubleshooting tools including trending and dynamic rung display. I believe they can even duplicate existing <I> displays so there is very little learning curve for operators (who generally hate anything to do with change). I believe their informational website is www.itc-info.us.

You can use the control.com 'Search' function to search for other threads. Useful search terms would include IDOS, ARCnet, and Mark V operator interface.

If you already have a GE Mark V HMI running some version of MS-Windows (NT, Win2000), then it's probably worth upgrading to the WinXP version. It's not know if they are coming out with a MS-Windows 7 version soon or not. (They're usually a little slow to upgrade to the latest version of MS-Windows, as are many other HMI vendors).
 
Our Mark V control has DOS based <I> and we are planning to upgrade Windows-XP <HMI>.

We discussed with GE regarding the ARCNET card, whether it to be replaced or not, the said that the exisiting ARCNET will be used and they will upgrade the some PROM's. Ethernet will be used for Mark VI panel only.

As per CSA statement, in future it is not easy to get ARCNET card, please clarify this puzzle.

we were using coaxial cable whereas in the GE drawing it mentioned fiber optic cable. This matter has been given to them, they said that "we are not going to change any exisiting cable".

Above all it seems GE are going to change only software and some PROM's. So our doubt is

1. If exisintg ARCNET card is used, will it worth?

2. Can we use exisintg coaxial cable or go for fiber optic?

Thanks
Nair
 
> We discussed with GE regarding the ARCNET card, whether it to be replaced or not, the said that the existing ARCnet [not ARCnet card] will be used and they will upgrade the some PROM's. <

You have answered your own question. The StageLink, which is the proper term for the ARCnet-style LAN used to connect operator interfaces (<I>s or HMIs) consists of the ARCnet card in the computer that is being used as the operator interface (<I> or HMI), and coaxial cable (which could have a fiber optic segment, also) to communicate with the Mark V using ARCnet-based protocol. The Mark V can only "speak" StageLink, period.

GE *MUST* re-use the existing coaxial cable (and any existing fiber optic link) to communicate between the operator interface and the Mark V; the Mark V can only "speak" ARCnet-based StageLink, so the operator interface (be it an <I> or an HMI) must have an ARCnet card to connect to the coaxial cable to communicate with the Mark V.

The ARCnet card in an <I> cannot be re-used with an HMI. There have been several different ways of connecting peripheral cards in computers over the years. The method used when <I>s were being used for Mark V operator interfaces is referred to as 'ISA bus'. That is, by today's standards, an outdated technology and is no longer used in current computers.

In addition, the microchips used on the ISA bus ARCnet cards are no longer available, and because the ISA bus is no longer used in computers and the chips are not available the ISA bus ARCnet cards are no longer produced and there are no longer any new cards available. So, if an ISA bus ARCnet card in your <I> fails and you have a spare (which most sites do not to begin with) and then the spare fails, you can't just buy a new ISA bus ARCnet card. (Well, there are some available through surplus- and new, old stock suppliers, but the supply is limited and they are not inexpensive.)

You can install a fiber optic link, but it cannot go directly from an ARCnet card in an operator interface to the Mark V. There *must* be a coaxial connection to both the ARCnet cards *and* the Mark V, even it's only 1 meter or less. There is no option for that.

The PROM upgrade has proven to be the weak link and the most problematic part of <I>-to-HMI upgrades. This can take anywhere from several hours to several days, depending on the experience level of the people involved in the process for preparing the PROMs and the software on the HMI (which must also be upgraded). It's a very complicated process, and if any small steps are missed it can be catastrophic.

More than one site has also complained of receiving blank PROMs, which can make the <I>-to-HMI upgrade impossible to complete at that time.

And, lastly, the completeness of the HMI displays provided with an <I>-to-HMI upgrade can also be very, very questionable. You are warned to test <b>every single</b> button/target, and <b>every</b> function on <b>every</b> HMI display <b>before</b> the person commissioning the HMIs leaves site. Use printed copies of the displays to check off that every button and function has been tested satisfactorily, or you will be chasing satisfaction for a very long time.
 
1. The types of ARCnet cards used in GE Mark V HMIs (and other vendors' offerings) are available in the open market from the manufacturer for spares and replacements. You don't need to buy a proprietary card from the HMI vendor, though the HMI vendors will likely have them for sale for a long time to come.

2. The HMI uses the MS-Windows operating system. So, one can have multiple windows, including multiple command prompt windows running the Mark V VIEW tools, which the <I> cannot, and which can be very useful when troubleshooting.

3. When a product is still being produced, it's usually easier to get service and support. GE is not currently offering service or support for <I>s, other than to sell GE Mark V HMIs to replace them.

That about sums up the advantages. The GE Mark V HMIs are very complicated and poorly documented (almost worse than the <I>s, if that's possible!). To make even simple changes to displays without executing multiple, undocumented applications and steps can leave the HMI unusable (back-ups are VERY important for GE Mark V HMIs!). Restoring GE Mark V HMIs after hard disk failures (which seem to happen all too frequency for some strange reason) can be very, very difficult if procedures aren't in place and followed religiously for keeping up-to-date back-ups. GE does offer RAID configurations, but without any documentation to use for disaster recovery.

On another hand, GE Mark V HMIs can store electronic copies of alarm logs on their hard disks (which most sites absolutely LOVE since they (mistakenly) think dot matrix printers are old technology and more trouble than they're worth, which is absolutely false!).

On another hand, PCs running MS-Windows are subject to anti-hacking and security restrictions of many regulatory agencies and governments. And they run MS-Windows, so, that makes keeping them safe a real challenge all by itself. Since <I>s generally don't have the ability to be networked or connected to the Internet, they are relatively safe. Though using infected removable media (floppy diskettes; optical media; flash drives; etc.) on any PC can still transfer viruses to the PCs, but not to the Mark V turbine control systems.

The simpler some things can seem to be, the more difficult they can actually be. Especially when it comes to making a choice. But one choice that has been effectively made for you: The inability to reliably and inexpensively obtain replacement ARCnet cards for <I>s. They ain't makin' any more of them!
 
Thank you CSA,

Ok, <I> ARCnet card will be replaced by a modern ARCnet card. What about the Mark V ARCnet card? Will it be used as it is or changed?

From your statement it's clear that Mark V only speak through ARCnet not by Ethernet.

Do you have any check list includes, which are the things to be checked after HMI upgrade (before the GE person leave the site)?

As agreement was made, now we are not in the state to change the vendor.

Is it necessary to introduce "hub" between the ARCnet cable?

Thanks
Nair
 
If you look at a Mark V turbine control panel, you will see there is no ARCnet network interface card like is necessary for an IBM-compatible PC. All of the necessary ARCnet-based communication and protocol requirements are already in the Mark V <C> core. The StageLink coaxial cable plugs into a BNC connector on the CTBA terminal board on <C> core. Nothing changes at the Mark V end of the StageLink.

Look, if GE can't tell you what you will be receiving when you get a GE Mark V HMI upgrade, we will based on a generic upgrade. The new hardware you will be receiving:

1) a new HMI CPU (Central Processing Unit) with MS-WinXP, CIMPLICITY;

2) a new ARCnet network interface card (PCI- or PCIe bus--not ISA bus) in the CPU;

3) a new keyboard;

4) a new mouse;

5) a new monitor;

6) new Mark V PROMs (the particular PROMsets will be determined by the vintage of Mark V panel at your site and the vintages of the currently installed PROMs);

7) possibly a new dot-matrix printer (officially known as the 'Alarm Logger').

If you bought a laser printer or a color printer that would be optional.

The new software you will be receiving:

1) a CIMPLICITY project configured for your turbine(s) at your site to display the graphics, control/command buttons targets, and alarms (Process- and Diagnostic) for your turbine(s), and as noted before, you need to be very diligent in the testing of these displays to be sure every component works properly, especially the buttons/targets, including the Alarm Lock, Unlock, Silence and Reset buttons;

2) a TCI (Turbine Control Interface) "folder" configured to allow you to download/upload, run the Dynamic Rung Display, User Defined (Demand) Displays, force logic, view Prevote Data, run the I/O Configurator, run the Control Sequence Editor, run the Total Job Compiler--all the things you need to do to be able to configure, monitor, and troubleshoot the unit(s) at your site with Mark V turbine control systems, and again, you should open every User Defined (Demand) Display, print a copy of them, and use them as check-lists to be sure that every button/target works as it should before the commissioning engineer leaves the site;

3) unit-specific software (hopefully) configured for the currently-installed cards and to-be-installed PROMs (this is one place where the breakdowns usually occurs; compiling and downloading can be problematic and this is the responsibility of the commissioning engineer to work with the factory engineer(s) to complete properly).

So, the key is to make sure that every button/target on every display (CIMPLICITY, User Defined (Demand), etc.) works. And that there are no unexplained Diagnostic- or Process Alarms, and that the unit starts and shuts down just as it did previously. The best way to do this is to print copies of every display and circle the buttons/targets and then use them as a checklist with initials and dates to be sure that every one was tested and works properly.

Unless you have purchased a fiber optic link to be installed somewhere, there will be no new "hubs" or "switches" (which a typical, coaxial-based StageLink does NOT use) provided or necessary. The existing StageLink coaxial cables will be reused as it's not necessary to replace them.

In the Mark V Application Manual, GEH-6195, there are detailed pictures of various Mark V StageLink configurations and their requirements. But, in general, when performing an <I>-to-HMI upgrade, the existing StageLink cabling is re-used with no new components (other than the new ARCnet card in the new HMI CPU).

If you bought multiple GE Mark V HMIs, they will likely be connected using Ethernet cables and switches, and possibly fiber optic lines, over what's called the PDH (Plant Data Highway). This will allow you to transfer files electronically between HMIs, without having to use floppy diskettes or CDs. But, it's not necessary for operating the turbines! GE will (should) provide you with what they call a 'Network Topology' drawing which will detail the StageLink and PDH connections, components, and associated information. So, that should add some clarity as to what they are providing and how it will be connected.

That's about all we can do for you, sir.

Best of luck, and let us know how the upgrade goes!
 
One main difference which is very helpful is being able to open multiple windows. Also another great feature is the data collection tools used on an HMI verses the old IDOS machines.
 
An interest has been expressed in a viable low cost HMI replacement for the GE MKIV and MKV <I> and HMI platform. The IBECS Turbine Control <ITC> offered by CSE Engineering provides the latest advancement in 3rd party integration.

<ITC> highlights include; real-time and historical data trending, Automated reports, Control Constant Modification, Auto Valve Calibration, EEProm Utility, Logic Forcing, View Tools, Pre-Vote Display, Quick Sheet Display & Dynamic Real Time Rung Display. <ITC> supports OPC as well as many other popular communications protocols.

Today's HMI must be reliable and "user friendly" in a fast paced operating evironment. Diagnostic tools as well as easy to us utilities are critical to enable the technician to properly troubleshoot turbine, generator and/or package related problems.

The key to achieving high reliability and availability is installing an expertly designed HMI that is a direct replacement for your current configuration incorporating the latest technology to extend the time between a major controls retrofit/upgrade.

HMI's that are redundant to each other enhance the reliability standard desired by end users ensuring continued operation in the event of HMI equipment failure.

Communications between the processors/cores and the HMI in "native language" is a top prioriy when data gathering, display and turbine control are vital.

For further details on the IBECS Turbine Control <ITC> HMI, visit
http:\\cse-eng-inc.com, http:\\info-itc.us or email [email protected]
 
I am looking into upgrading 2 I to HMI. I would like to know if anyone of you has been involved with a recent upgrade project to see what's the suggested software package configuration in terms of Cimplicity, TCI, Cimbridge, Toolbox to be suggested. At the same time I would like to confirm that the EPROM set that need to be upgraded are the U11,U12.
As well does anyone have experience on a proven technology to adopt to extend the stagelink from one HMI to a second HMI using fiber optics. I am currently exploring 2 options : S.I.TECH#2853 ARCNET to Fiber units and Contemporary Control Systems Mod Hub + expansion card CXS-FOG-ST.
Thank you,
J
 
I am looking into upgrading 2 I to HMI. I would like to know if anyone of you has been involved with a recent upgrade project to see what's the suggested software package configuration in terms of Cimplicity, TCI, Cimbridge, Toolbox to be suggested. At the same time I would like to confirm that the EPROM set that need to be upgraded are the U11,U12.
As well does anyone have experience on a proven technology to adopt to extend the stagelink from one HMI to a second HMI using fiber optics. I am currently exploring 2 options : S.I.TECH#2853 ARCNET to Fiber units and Contemporary Control Systems Mod Hub + expansion card CXS-FOG-ST.
Thank you,
J
Is this a MKV system?
What is your current location
 
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