mark v idos

Hi, dustin,

You seem to be trying to say that you want to load IDOS on a hew hard drive, but you're not saying if that hard drive is going to be used in the same CPU with the same motherboard, or in a new CPU or with a new motherboard.

You have to find a hard drive that will work with the CPU/motherboard you intend to use. AND, you need to know that IDOS requires MS-DOS to start and run, and that MS-DOS doesn't doesn't work with many newer motherboards and BIOS chips.

If the hard drive IDOS is currently on is working, you need to find a ghosting or imaging program that will run on MS-DOS and use it to create an image on a new hard drive. The typical way to do that is to use the second IDE cable in the CPU (on the motherboard) to create the image on the new hard drive.

What you really need is someone who's familiar with MS-DOS and command line programs and the hardware from that era to take over and do this for you. As I write this, there are a lot of things we don't know about the situation. Do you have the original MS-DOS floppy disks? Do you have a floppy disk drive that works? Many of the later (newer) IDOS CPUs shipped with three floppy disks which contained IDOS on them and could be used to install IDOS and the necessary programs on a hard drive. You need to create the required hard drive file structure (which is described in the Mark V literature; I can't recall if it's the Mark V Maintenance Manual, GEH-5980, or the Mark V Application Guide, GEH-6195--but it's one or both of them).

Finally, you're going to need to copy the existing unit-specific software (from the F: drive of the original IDOS CPU) to the new hard drive. Most <I>s shipped with PKZip which could be used to span a zip file across multiple floppies if necessary (again, someone who's familiar with command line programs from back in the day would know what this means and how to accomplish it).

But, really, without a LOT more detail about what you have, what is working or isn't, and what you are trying to do, and what your knowledge and experience is, trying to develop a procedure would be difficult and futile if you don't have command line program experience or have some who does. And, even if you do, it would still be difficult after all these years....

Best of luck. It's a daunting task in today's world.
 
I use a Dell 4600. This OLD desktop pc was on the edge of IDE and SATA hard drives therefore supported both.
The operating system is Windows XP and Acronis 11.5 workstation backup software.

The older IDE drives in small sizes are getting harder to get and all of them are refurbished. I will purchase several and after testing only a few will will work.

The BIOS in those old IDOS machines DO NOT support large IDE hard drives. Since I do not have any details, I cannot recommend a max size of the old ide drive.

Backup procedure is simple. Remove the drive from the IDOS machine and attach it to the old Dell 4600 ide port. Boot up the 4600 to the sata hard drive with the WinXP OS on it. WinXP will recognize the old IDE hard drive that is attached. Since your IDE IDOS hard drive is offline i.e. NO OS is active NO FILES are locked. Complete images are possible.

Using Acronis, one can then make an image of the old IDOS drive. Over the years I have collected old IDE hard drives and have been able to restore them for use in the old machines.
 
Finally, you're going to need to copy the existing unit-specific software (from the F: drive of the original IDOS CPU) to the new hard drive. Most <I>s shipped with PKZip which could be used to span a zip file across multiple floppies if necessary (again, someone who's familiar with command line programs from back in the day would know what this means and how to accomplish it).

CSA,

Just FYI, because I know you like to Know.

The F: and G: drives do not physically actually exist on IDOS, WinNT, etc. During boot up a executable commands to the operating system to map drives. If one goes to a old GE HMI and types in SUBST from a command line, it will list the drive mapping.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/administration/windows-commands/subst

F:=C:\Site

P.S. I started on DOS 3.1 and know every command from memory.

Have a wonderful day.
 
Curious_One,

There is a folder on the G: drive which has the typical AUTOEXEC.BAT and .SYS (I can't even recall the name of that file...! it's been so long) and if one copies those to the root of C: they will do all of the SUBSTituting and all of that. (I think the folder is G:\DATA.)

So, one doesn't have to create those files from scratch--they are already on the IDOS floppies or on the hard drive of the existing <I> in the correct place.

And, yes--it's sometimes possible to find suitable old CPUs/computer/motherboards on ebay or similar sites, as well as older hard drives of the smaller size. I think I have successfully formatted some large hard drives to only use like 40 MB instead of 250 MB and they worked fine (I don't recall the exact size of the hard drive which I only used a portion of).

And, yes, I started on DOS 3.n as well, and I still like to perform a lot of operations from the command line (actually I loathe and detest taking my hands off the keyboard to click on something (usually one thing!) with a mouse--it's such a waste of time and effort). I also prefer to use a LOT of keyboard shortcuts on MS-Windows (like [WIN key + e] to open the Windows file explorer instead of taking my hands off the keyboard to click on the icon or click on the Start target and then click a couple more times to open Windows file explorer when I can do it with my hands on the keyboard.

Anyway, I digress (I know; I digress a lot...!).

But, the fact remains--the original poster really didn't provide much information. AND, we don't know how he intended to make the image or ghost the existing <I> hard drive, or even if the existing <I> hard drive was working or not. Or, where the new hard drive would end up. A LOT of people just (foolishly) think they can "copy" the <I> hard drive to a new one in a fancy new machine and everything will be faster and newer and "better." (Kids; they are so earnest--and just don't think things through. And, most of them don't like being told they can't do what they want to do, and will waste lots of time and money learning that fact the hard way. (I wasn't like that, of course. ;-) )

Blessed day.
 
Hi ,

thanks for you all ,
my english is not good so ....
we want to upgrade existing mark v to new HMI hardware , but before i want to clone the existing hdd and send it to our engeeneer .
i am familiar with old msdos 3.xx 6.xxx , fat 16 ...fdisk ..... i prepared an old machine P4 with isa slot this machine has ide channels , and i have two old hdd driver 600 Mo .
i am familiar with old dos command like xcopy , .....
i installed windows 98 on P4 machine and ghost software , can this work ?
do i have to partitionnate de 600 Mo hard drive ?
Other alternative is using xp with arconis , can thius work ?
i a worry because i never work with idos , idos is similar to ms dos ?
Thank you very mach .
 
dustin,

" i installed windows 98 on P4 machine and ghost software , can this work ?"

No; this cannot work. IDOS is a proprietary, multi-tasking ,disk-based, command line-driven operating system. An x86-based PC running MS-DOS 6.n boots up as an MS-DOS 6.n system, but if you look at the AUTOEXEC.BAT file it schedules another file RUN_IDP.BAT which then starts IDOS which then "takes over" the microprocessor and schedules MS-DOS 6.nas one of the tasks. It starts and runs the ARCnet card driver which is required for IDOS to be able to communicate with Mark V turbine control systems.

PCs running IDOS as Mark V operator interfaces are called <I> computers, not HMIs.

In my experience (though I've never tried it!) IDOS cannot be run as the computer operating system and also run MS-Windows (of any version). MS-Windows was primarily a graphical user interface running on a command line driven operating system (it's not that any longer, though many operations can still be done with command line interfaces).

If you want to use a larger hard drive than MS-DOS can recognize you have to format it to the size MS-DOS can recognize, and then the remaining MB are lost and gone (unrecognizable)--at least that's what I've had to do in the past. Curious_One says he buys older, smaller hard drives when he spots them--but he also says some of them don't work.... They are probably not expensive--though that might change as most things kind of have a price curve that starts out high, then dips low, then as they become more scarce the price goes up again.

Anyway, I think you could probably take the <I> (IDOS) hard drive, put it in a machine with IDE capability as a non-primary disk, and then use Acronis or something similar to duplicate the drive to another disk; that would probably work.

But, I don't think you're going to run IDOS on a MS-Windows machine, or vice versa, and get it to communicate with a Mark V turbine control panel. I did, decades ago, configure a PC running MS-DOS 6.n to be a multi-boot machine and could boot up as a MS-Windows machine (98 or XP as I recall) OR as a MS-DOS machine--but not as a MS-Windows machine running IDOS. And, the only reason I did that was just because I could; I never used that PC to actually operate a turbine (gas or steam), though I did use the PC to communicate with a Mark V training panel--but only when it was booted-up as an <I> (running MS-DOS 6.n and IDOS and using an ARCnet card). It was simply a "project" and it worked, it prevented the need for two PCs, but when it was booted as a Windows machine it wouldn't communicate with the Mark V, and when it was booted as an <I> it didn't have any of the features of MS-Windows.

Best of luck! Let us know how this works for you. One final thing I want to say about IDOS is: IDOS remaps interrupts. I don't know which ones, but I know it does. This means IDOS DOES NOT work with any and every BIOS chipset out there. I think it most successfully worked Phoenix BIOS chipsets, but even then it didn't work with every chipset. And, I believe this is another reason it wouldn't work "alongside" or "with" MS-Windows. But, I have been wrong before, and I will be wrong in the future. I do remember that GE had to write a special keyboard driver for IBM brand laptops because of the interrupt rescaling (GE bought IBM brand laptop PCs for field service personnel to use and in order for them to be able to run IDOS on the IBM brand PCs it was necessary to get the special keyboard driver from GE (which they later just added to the IDOS distribution as I recall).
 
Hi ,
Thanks for you replay ,
My goal is not to clone hdd an run it on an old pc to communicate with mark V .
my boss will give me an hdd taken from a machine ( Old machine ) that is running acutually and communication with mark v.
turbine.
i have a P4 machine : Win 98 to clone the hdd
i have an old machine amDX4 with 1 Mb memory: to test if the cloned hdd will work .
i dont need to test de com with arcnet .
If the cloned hdd works on the dx4 machine , i will send it to our foreign engineer so he cant starts developping new hmi ...

what you say here , is good for me :
**** Anyway, I think you could probably take the <I> (IDOS) hard drive, put it in a machine with IDE capability as a non-primary disk, and then use Acronis or something similar to duplicate the drive to another disk; that would probably work.***

if i successfully clone with acronis and my dx4 works , it will be fine .

Thanks .
 
Okay. I hope your foreign engineer is really good with communications protocols--because it sounds like you want to replicate an operator interface for Mark V turbine control systems can tell you that the Control Systems Division of MD&A Turbines, LLC, has an HMI that can completely replace any <I> or HMI--and exceed the functionality of any <I> or HMI several times over. EVERY function of an <I> or HMI is possible (LVDT calibration; logic forcing; Control Constant changes; CSP editing; compiling; EEPROM downloading/uploading; Diagnostic Counters). It even has historical capability built-in--and it's MUCH easier to use than OSISOFT PI (and infinitely cheaper). And, it's already done for you. The networking capabilities are also infinitely better than GE's <I>s or HMIs. And, it's cheaper. And, can be quickly configured and delivered.

I don't know if it's up on their Corporate website yet, but here's the URL: www.mdaturbines.com. Their Control Systems Division is headquartered in Fort Collins, Colorado, USA. They have provided these HMIs to sites around the world. They are proven and robust (as long as no one tries loading other software on them!!! for other control systems). And, again, the work is already done. No snooping; no testing; no development. No ARCnet development and sourcing. Complete package. Screens are very easy to create and/or modify. And, did I mention it has historical data archival and retrieval capability--built-in--all for one price? And, it's cyber-secure.

It's a MS-Windows-based PC, using the latest and greatest hardware you are willing to pay for (from inexpensive to Wall Street server reliability). If you have trouble getting in touch with them, post a note to this thread, and I can provide contact information.

I ONLY post this information because I know this to be a good, robust system. I am NOT promoting it; only trying to make the reader aware of its existence. I am a big believer in not re-inventing the wheel.

Hope this helps! Best of luck.
 
Dear sir ,
Thanks for your help .
what about this :

what you say here , is good for me :
**** Anyway, I think you could probably take the <I> (IDOS) hard drive, put it in a machine with IDE capability as a non-primary disk, and then use Acronis or something similar to duplicate the drive to another disk; that would probably work.***

if i successfully clone with acronis and my dx4 works , it will be fine .

Thanks .
 
Hi ,
Thanks for you replay ,
My goal is not to clone hdd an run it on an old pc to communicate with mark V .
my boss will give me an hdd taken from a machine ( Old machine ) that is running acutually and communication with mark v.
turbine.
i have a P4 machine : Win 98 to clone the hdd
i have an old machine amDX4 with 1 Mb memory: to test if the cloned hdd will work .
i dont need to test de com with arcnet .
If the cloned hdd works on the dx4 machine , i will send it to our foreign engineer so he cant starts developping new hmi ...

what you say here , is good for me :
**** Anyway, I think you could probably take the <I> (IDOS) hard drive, put it in a machine with IDE capability as a non-primary disk, and then use Acronis or something similar to duplicate the drive to another disk; that would probably work.***



Thanks .
dustin

Yes, your p4 machine should work.

the backups I have made on the old drives using proper backup software from a non-primary disk have captured the boot sector and everything else.

When another drive is restored from backup, it will boot up just like the original in the old machine it came from. Acronis will also create the proper active partition and partition size.

I prefer Acronis because it allows one to pull the files from the archive file without damage or corruption.
 
Dustin,

After reading more of your comment. Windows 98 supported IDE CD Burners.

Use the SUBST command on your old IDOS to determine where F: and G: are mapped to.

Place your IDOS drive in your P4 and let Win98 recognize it. Then just burn all the files to CDROM and send it to your vendor.

I think in all my junk, I probably have a working IDE CDROM.

Never the less, just a alternate solution since you are not actually trying to create a bootable IDOS drive.
 
Dustin,

I have lost it. I forget to KISS Keep IT Simple Stupid.

Attach you IDOS drive to your P4 machine. Boot to Win 98. Once your non-primary offline IDOS drive is recognized the use XCOPY.

Create a folder on your win98 drive for instance IDOS folder. I am assuming that Win98 recognized you IDOS drive as D:

XCOPY D:\*.* C:\IDOS\*.* /s/e/v

Then just send you Win98 drive to the vendor.
 
Keep it simple really.

https://www.shi.com/product/19474203/Black-Box-USB-2.0-to-IDE/SATA-Combo-Adapter

Grab you Windows 10 laptop and attach you IDOS drive to the above device.

XCOPY D:\*.* C:\IDOS\*.* /s/e/v

https://www.businessinsider.com/how-to-unzip-files-on-windows-10

Zip them files up and email them to your vendor.

I keep forgetting that we are not trying to create a bootable image disk. Most of the configuration files on an IDOS are text file with the exception of those created by IO Configurator.

Be sure to use IO Config to list parm and list screens before doing all this. This creates the readable text files from IO Configurator.
 
Dustin,

As CSA stated above, there are several options presently out there that allow for a newer style HMI replacement for the <I>DOS or GE TCI (Cimplicity) upgrade. Without showing support for any particular system, you have MD&A (URL: www.mdaturbines.com ) and CST (URL: HMI Upgrades – Control System HMI Upgrades, Retrofits, Modernization (controlsystemtechnologies.com), both of whom have systems that produce information far greater than what GE provided. Like CSA states, these systems provide a much enhanced customer experience with the same if not better functionality.

CSA and Curious_one have pretty much covered, correctly, the chipset issues with new motherboards, windows OS and the old IBM keyboard. John <I> also had to rewrite a section of IDOS when those IBMs were upgraded for the field engineers later in the program. Some field engineers wrote good batch files that allowed for producing CSP, Xref, Modbus and IOConfig from the <I> allowing for a paper trail to exist prior to the engineer leaving site. Thanks mainly to Ben Rush for his personal time writing various programs.

It is possible to use a USB to IDE cable and separately a power cable to the HD that will allow you to connect to any computer available today and thus copy all the drive to another drive or another USB (did it last week). This will work as for coping the HD, however, running IDOS as discussed here becomes your problem. That said, your engineer should only need a copy of what you currently are running to provide you with a new HMI, unless he is running this in a virtual enviroment.

As stated earlier in this chain, I hope your engineer's capability and product(s) provide a good solution for you.
 
Hi all ,
Thanks for your help.
i was able to clone a working idos hdd . the cloned hdd boots successfuly on an old machine and i can see the old hmi and access to program.
Cause i am curious , i added the arcnet card in isa slot , i know the irq of the arcnet is 15 but no communication with the controller.
any iidea ?

Thanks a lot.
 
IDOS remaps interrupts and it doesn’t work with all BIOS chips. If I recall correctly, it worked best with PHOENIX BIOS chips, but I may not recall exactly correctly.

If I can get to my Mark V notes in a few days I’ll see if I have anything I can add. But I’m headed away from home, not towards it and rumor has it that I will be going even further away than originally planned.

Thanks for the feedback!
 
Hi all ,
Thanks for your help.
i was able to clone a working idos hdd . the cloned hdd boots successfuly on an old machine and i can see the old hmi and access to program.
Cause i am curious , i added the arcnet card in isa slot , i know the irq of the arcnet is 15 but no communication with the controller.
any iidea ?

Thanks a lot.
Dustin,
Not enough information. Are you trying to add a old machine to the existing ARCNET network????
 
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