Siemens Rumours (was OTHER Linux longevity)

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Thread Starter

Michael Griffin

Richard Higginbotham wrote:
<clip>
>Theres nothing stopping APT from being updated, except Siemens. I'm
>sure there are plenty of companies/groups that would love to take it off
>Siemens hands, but Siemens won't do that either. They will make more money
>with one line of PLCs than they will with two. That just business.
>Everytime 505 users see Siemens buy out another company to get marketshare,
>we know whats comming.

When Siemens bought TI's PLC division, they didn't want TI's PLCs,
they wanted TI's customers. I won't be surprised to see the 505 series
discontinued. I'm rather surprised to see how long it lasted. Whether
Siemens then keeps many of those customers is of course another question.
Why wouldn't they put a 5x5 CPU in an S7-400 box and use the S7-400 I/O?
That would have eased some of these existing customers into the S7-400 line
with a bit less fuss.


>However, the S7-400 is more difficult to use than a SLC or ControlLogix
>processor and expensive. Nice PLC in some respects, bad programming packages
>productivity wise. Typical Harder is Better, philosophy.

I've used the S7-300, which is the smaller version. For a small to
mid-range PLC, it's overly complicated, and its all the fault of the
programming software and the documentation. The actual PLC isn't all that
more complicated than an S5, but the programming software is a maze, and the
documentation is scattered and disorganised. Of course, Step-5 was no great
prize either.
On the other hand, the S7-200 is completely different. It's nice,
simple, and well documented. The software is simple, so you can concentrate
on writing your program instead of fighting with the software.

<clip>
>Don't get me wrong, Siemens has/have had a lot of good people working for
>them. I know and have worked with quite a few. But the good intentions in
>Johnson City are no match for the corporate monolith in Germany. Theres no
>doubt in my mind how good the 505 line can be, nor that it will never be
>allowed to happen. Rumors abound that the Johnson City site (505 line) will
>be closing down soon.
<clip>

They also make the S7-200 series there, and I understood that that
product was a really big seller. Are you just talking about closing down 505
production, or are they moving S7-200 production somewhere else? Any rumours
you have are appreciated, and of course the more outrageous they are, the
more likely they are to be true (after all, this is Siemens we are talking
about).



**********************
Michael Griffin
London, Ont. Canada
**********************
 
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Richard Higginbotham

> When Siemens bought TI's PLC division, they didn't want TI's PLCs,
>they wanted TI's customers. I won't be surprised to see the 505 series
>discontinued. I'm rather surprised to see how long it lasted. Whether
>Siemens then keeps many of those customers is of course another question.
They just needed into the market.

> I've used the S7-300, which is the smaller version. For a small to
>mid-range PLC, it's overly complicated, and its all the fault of the
>programming software and the documentation. The actual PLC isn't all that
>more complicated than an S5, but the programming software is a maze, and the
>documentation is scattered and disorganised. Of course, Step-5 was no great
>prize either.

Yep, I think the 505 OS is a little (alot) more user friendly, but for the most part the programming software could compensate for that, if they would listen to the people in thier user groups and posting on their message boards.


> On the other hand, the S7-200 is completely different. It's nice,
>simple, and well documented. The software is simple, so you can concentrate
>on writing your program instead of fighting with the software.
I was shocked at how much like the 505 stuff it is. Even "V" memory. Wonder where that came from ;).

> They also make the S7-200 series there, and I understood that that
>product was a really big seller. Are you just talking about closing down 505
>production, or are they moving S7-200 production somewhere else? Any rumours
>you have are appreciated, and of course the more outrageous they are, the
>more likely they are to be true (after all, this is Siemens we are talking
>about).

I haven't heard any dates but I know there are going to be some changes soon. Manufactoring is/may be moving to another site in town. I assume this means 505 and S7-200 but I'm not sure. The 505 dev./support people are given the choice of a small (inadequate) Cost of Living increase and a move to Philly (Pa.) (or elsewhere) or pounding the pavement looking for new jobs. If they moved they will most likely be merged with some of the other hangers on who haven't realized their products are inferior (read Moore) ;). I think they had until this week or next week to decide. Some people will stay some will leave. Theres only 3 devs on the APT team left (and have been for a while now - down from 14 I think), I wouldn't expect any more major releases. The PCS group has already been broken up quite a bit (original 26, not sure what the current number is) from what I understand, and contemplating moving to Phillidelphia. I should also add that when your commercial software gr!
oup advertises they will code for food, you know you're in trouble. [They've recently said they would add certain features to PCS if customers were willing to fund it. Those new features would then be available to all the other users. In a lot of cases its worth to the users.] I don't know what the plan is going to be after Philly though. If they merge with another group, I expect thats the end of the 505 software in all but name. Haven't heard anything about the Tisoft or S7-200 tools(not even sure they're in JC) side, but I would expect much of the same.

Richard Higginbotham
 
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D. C. Pittendrigh

Hi All

I disagree with 99% of the content of the attached E-Mail but don't want to fight this fight over and over again.

For the TI fans please have a look at PLC Direct, they maintain that their PLC's are the TI range re-incarnated. I have not attempted to establish this as I only work on Siemens PLC's and don't care if my fingers never type another line of code that is not S7.

Cheers
Donald Pittendrigh
 
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Well it is very interesting that all the nay sayers are still killing 505!

As the Product Manager my life and job depends on this!
Since I am writing to this column I must still be alive!
My competition would love to see 505 dead and have been saying this for 5 years!
Look for the new developments in TCP/IP Ethernet modules from Siemens in the next 2-4 weeks.

NO, 505 is not dead but very alive and still causing our competitors much pain!
 
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Higginbotham Ricky

Ok, I hate to do this but since you responded publically, I'll bite.

What tools will be supporting these new modules?

How many PCS developers remain?

How many Apt developers remain?

Are the rumors not true, is everyone in JC staying right where they are?
Guess those guys with resumes are a figment of my imagination?

If you come out with new features, how will you support them in software? Theres already a mounting list of things APT doesn't support. I guess this is the part where some guy in the background says, "but SoftShop does all that". hah, love those user group meetings. ;)

No one said you were dead per say. Just saying your being cut off at the knees, Siemens is tired of waiting I guess. As far as I know the 505
equipment is selling quite well, much better than the S7 hardware.

I've even heard a nasty rumor sales reps get more for selling S7 hardware than (inferior American ;) ) 505. Care to comment?

Richard Higginbotham
 
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Curt Wuollet

Hi Wayne

> Well it is very interesting that all the nay sayers are still killing 505!
>
> As the Product Manager my life and job depends on this!
> Since I am writing to this column I must still be alive!
> My competition would love to see 505 dead and have been saying this for 5
> years!
> Look for the new developments in TCP/IP Ethernet modules from Siemens in the
> next 2-4 weeks.
&lt;clip>

And will these TCP/IP modules run protocols that are published and I can write to from my Linux box with GPL'd code?

Regards

cww
 
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Ranjan Acharya

With regards to TI555 rumours, perhaps a TI555 may be in the offing with an Ethernet front port. Or at least a new souped up Ethernet card.

The backplane bandwidth and task code restrictions hurt with all the TI505 SF modules.

RJ
 
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Tony R. Gunderman

I, too, am interested in the "life plans" for the 505 line. It has only been a short time since we purchased a chunk of 555 controllers and CP1434TF modules. These are functioning quite well, but there is always the concern over long term support. 505 does not get much focus at the Users' Conference, but is a product line with a very large installed base. Suprisingly, Siemens has not proven to be the death knell for 505 like many of us former Texas Instruments customers thought it would be. In fact development has continued by Siemens and CTI. Maybe not a lot, but at least some. It was good to see Mr. King's post. I will follow this thread to see what materializes. I can always hope. I posted a wish list for 505 on the Siemens User Forum not long ago, but that is a thread that does not get much activity. I believe there is a much better chance for development in the 505 line if more users add their voice. Siemens is in business to make money. I would assume they would keep any product line that was contributing in that area.

I have had little experience with S7 except for the S7-200 line. The Step7 Micro for DOS looks and feels just like TISOFT. Step7 Micro for Windows is a little different, but the syntax is similar to 505 (as well as the Automation Direct Koyo line). However, what I have seen of higher end S7 products, they are a different beast. My love affair with 505 may end if S7-400 proves to be better. If not, I'll keep clamoring to keep 505 alive.

Tony R. Gunderman
 
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Joseph Luft, FasTrak SoftWorks, Inc.

> If you come out with new features, how will you support them in software? Theres already a mounting list of things APT doesn't support. I guess this is the part where some guy in the background says, "but SoftShop does all that". hah, love those user group meetings. ;)

Richard,

As the manufacturer of 505 SoftShop, I can't resist saying "but SoftShop does all that":)

FasTrak continues to devote significant resources to the on-going development of the 32 bit Windows software solution for the 505 line. In fact, you can visit our website (www.fast-soft.com) to see the latest release which is just a couple days old.

Feel free to contact me with your wish list for 505 SoftShop. I'll see to it that we consider your input very seriously.

Thanks. Joe

Joseph Luft, President

FasTrak SoftWorks, Inc
6659 W Mill Road
Milwaukee WI 53218
(414) 358-8088
[email protected]
www.fast-soft.com
 
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Ranjan Acharya

This may be common knowledge to those in the TI505 field, but the TI575 (VME TI505 PLC) is no more.

We do not see them much, but there are users out there and they will be in for a nasty shock if they want to procure a spare.

We have a customer that inquired about a spare and we e-mailed the local Siemens representative. The TI575 had disappeared from the latest list of parts available, which was a little bit disconcerting. The local Siemens
representative informed us that there were no TI575s to be had and that the only way of getting a working one was to have a defective one repaired.

Some of the purveyors of obsolete TI575s have a few in stock -- others just laughed when I asked for a TI575 ("we have lots of TI505 but no TI575s sir").

Luckily our customer did not require a spare part at this time. The price for a re-built one from an obsolete part vendor starts around US$4000 or so for a low-end 575-2102.

I think that it disappeared quite quickly, along with the lack of TI505 representation at the recent SIMATIC user's conference, this only amplifies concerns about Siemens' commitment to TI505.
 
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Mike Johnson

I think Siemens is weeding the TIs out and pushing the S7 as a replacement for TIs and S5s.

Mike Johnson
 
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