Siemens S5 to S7 HMI & other issues

T

Thread Starter

Terry Bell

Since Siemens is well into the process of phasing out S5, I'm looking at upgrading a S5 system to S7
The BIG problem is that our current S5 HMI (com 527) is TOTALLY incompatible with S7 stuff.

In investigating this change I've come up with what I would consider the normal problems. There are certain S5 modules that have no S7 counterpart (S5 458 has 16 isolated relay outputs) and the TOTALLY brain dead change of making the S5 front module connectors incompatible with the S7 connectors, basically demanding that you rewire the system (uck.....)

Now to the HMI. I'm pretty familiar with Labview, and I've upgraded our version to the Professional Supervisory Control Developers edition. It has all the drivers for both S5 and S7. For me, it's probably the path of least resistance. I could develop the HMI using the S5 serial bus. After it's running, I could get the S5 to serially communicate with the S7 and get the HMI working off the S7 system. After all that, then I could look at doing the grunt swap work.

Problem is, I'm not sure it's the best tool for the job.

Siemens is pushing WinCC. It probably integrates easier then Labview, in that I think it will import the tags directly ( probably 300 to 400 tags ). But I know someone who previously tested WinCC and found it to slow because it was disk based instead of ram based. The Siemens guy pretty much admitted that, but said it was fixed in the current version ..... Our current S5 cycle time is pretty slow, around 150 ms, but it may get faster with the change to S7.


The people who now own the company that made our device ( a medical cyclotron ) use Wonderware's Intouch. I have no feel for this, except that from the postings, it seems like the tool a lot of people are using.

On top of all that, I'm just leery about connecting my cyclotron control to ANY box running NT or 2000 or Microsoft BSOD box. Siemens makes these dedicated terminals, but they are running Microsoft Windows CE, so is that better, or not????

Ah life in the big leagues.. lot's of questions, and not a lot of real answers. Just sales garble..

Anyway, I'm pretty sure a lot of people have already been through most of these hoops, so I'd really appreciate it if they could pass on what they learned about what went right, what went wrong and why.

thanx
:->
tb
 
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Donald Pittendrigh

Hi All

> Since Siemens is well into the process of phasing out S5, I'm looking at
> upgrading a S5 system to S7. The BIG problem is that our current S5 HMI
> (com 527) is TOTALLY incompatible with S7 stuff.

I am not sure this is correct, it is possible to run S5 modules in an S7 by using a special adapter casing. There may well be a problem getting the S7 equivalent of the old handling blocks, I would think you are probably better off with some thing more modern.

I would recommend that you consider one of the Siemens Operator panels, I know there have been some changes in the OP/MP range recently so I am not going to recommend any particular model but I have worked with CP527 and more recently with OP25 and OP27. I think the OP27 is now an MP27 or somenthing similar and is more than adequate to replace the old CP it is easier to work with and interfaces to the Profibus port or MPI port on the CPU which is a hassle free excercise and requires no handling blocks like the old CP did.

It is not cheap, but may be cheaper than WINCC or InTouch at the end of the day. The OP is very likely to produce a faster update time than a SCADA.

> In investigating this change I've come up with what I would consider the
> normal problems. There are certain S5 modules that have no S7
> counterpart (S5 458 has 16 isolated relay outputs) and the TOTALLY brain
> dead change of making the S5 front module connectors incompatible with
> the S7 connectors, basically demanding that you rewire the system
> (uck.....)
>

You can interface an S7 to S5 I/O racks I could not get this to work with the old 150A I/O's but am not aware of any problems with the other S5
ranges.

> Now to the HMI. I'm pretty familiar with Labview, and I've upgraded our
> version to the Professional Supervisory Control Developers edition. It has
> all the drivers for both S5 and S7. For me, it's probably the path of
> least resistance. I could develop the HMI using the S5 serial bus. After
> it's running, I could get the S5 to serially communicate with the S7 and
> get the HMI working off the S7 system. After all that, then I could
> look at doing the grunt swap work.
>
> Problem is, I'm not sure it's the best tool for the job.
>
> Siemens is pushing WinCC. It probably integrates easier then Labview, in
> that I think it will import the tags directly ( probably 300 to 400 tags
> ). But I know someone who previously tested WinCC and found it to slow
> because it was disk based instead of ram based. The Siemens guy pretty
> much admitted that, but said it was fixed in the current version .....
> Our current S5 cycle time is pretty slow, around 150 ms, but it may get
> faster with the change to S7.
>
> The people who now own the company that made our device ( a medical
> cyclotron ) use Wonderware's Intouch. I have no feel for this, except that
> from the postings, it seems like the tool a lot of people are using.

The latest version of WINCC is a good product, some of the earlier versions were disgusting, I have no experience worth noting with WinCC but I am led to believe by other independant SI's that it is good, and have recently been informed about the latest developments by a product specialist who I trust, he is not a salesman.

InTouch works great, I use it a lot on Win2000, have a great respect for the stability of Win2000 and in touch, the machine must not skimp on resources. InTouch is expensive and not always fun to work with. WinCC imports tags directly from your program symbols list, it is a great time saving feature. The OP mentioned above does the same thing. There is another
advantage of both the OP

> On top of all that, I'm just leery about connecting my cyclotron control
> to ANY box running NT or 2000 or Microsoft BSOD box. Siemens makes these
> dedicated terminals, but they are running Microsoft Windows CE, so is that
> better, or not????
>
> Ah life in the big leagues.. lot's of questions, and not a lot of real
> answers. Just sales garble..
>
> Anyway, I'm pretty sure a lot of people have already been through most of
> these hoops, so I'd really appreciate it if they could pass on what they
> learned about what went right, what went wrong and why.
>
> thanx
> :->
> tb
 
P
The best solution for you is the Siemens HMI product line. I recommend the new CE stuff. TP (Touch Panel), OP (Operator Panel with function keys), MP (Multifunctional Panel), I'll explain that later. There are different sizes for each. TP170 and OP170 are 6", TP270-6", OP270-6", TP270-10", OP270-10", MP270B is 10" and comes touch or function keys. MP370 is 12" and comes in touch or function keys. The reason why I say the best solution would be the Siemens HMI panels is that when using the Step 7 programming package the HMI programming package ProTool can be easily integrated. This means that you have one project with multiple programming packages. When integrated the tag database is shared between Step 7 and ProTool. This means that you do not type them twice and when you make changes in Step 7 they are available for use in ProTool. The other obvious advantage is common support. If you have a problem then there is one phone call to make.

As for any concerns that it is CE, squelch them. When was the last time your PDA took a nose dive because of the operating system. The reason why Siemens went CE is because of the openness of the product, the limited memory it requires, and no moving media. The same operating system is used for all the sizes and flavors of the panels, just different components of CE were installed. That leads to something interesting. If you are really creative and you just don't like the ProTool HMI package, then design your own with Visual Studio C++ embedded or choose from some of the 3rd party software vendors that Siemens has teamed up with. This is a completely open platform.

That is a great segway into the MP-Multifunctional Platform. This panel is
designed with the idea in mind that people may want to install CE software products like PDF Viewer so you can view .pdf documents that are stored onthe external flash. Great for trouble-shooting your machine. Or you can install an RDP Client software and make the MP into a Thin Client to an application server. Here is an example. Let's say you have 50 HMI stations and your factory SCADA is something like WinCC or Wonderware. Before the thin client concept you would have to place PCs down at each station with the SCADA licenses installed on each. Costly. With Thin Client- you simply install the RDP software on your panel and connect the panels via TCP/IP to your Server which has your SCADA installed. Each Thin Client can now log onto the server. Depending on the access rights will be able to run the same SCADA screens that the PCs could. Of course the SCADA package will have some licensing issues for thin clients, but the savings can be tremendous on top of that you do not have PCs down at the operator level.
Good luck.
 
C

Curt Wuollet

Hi Ron

That's a completely open system?

It's like Henry Ford said, "They can have any color they want, as long as it's black". You can use our Microsoft stuff, generate your own Microsoft stuff or use third party Microsoft stuff, all written against closed libraries with very restrictive licenses.

And when's the last time anyone left their PDA on long enough to crash? I will grant that CE has to be more reliable than the rest of the family, less is better. It's what Windows should have been, unbundled. But, Open is still quite a stretch. Actually the MS "embedded" products are really interesting, in that they unbundled all the stuff they swore couldn't possibly be unbundled. Would have been much cheaper for everyone involved to simply use Linux.

Regards

cww
 
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Siemens *does* have Linux development station software for *some* of their systems. Unfortunately, I'm not directly involved with them and can't tell you any more than that. :-( You can always check their website, which is
pretty extensive.

Paul Gruhn, P.E., C.F.S.E.
Siemens, Houston, TX
 
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Michael Griffin

With regards to MMI systems which use Windows CE as an operating system:

I was under the impression that Windows CE was going to be phased out in favour of some form of Windows XP Embedded. It (Windows CE) was so different from other versions of Windows that Microsoft considered it a technological dead end. That is, it didn't fulfill the role of extending enough of the overall Windows functions and features into the embedded market.

Windows XP Embedded is supposed to address this by keeping a common code base with the other versions of Windows XP. This means that when a new version of Windows XP comes out, an equivalent version for the embedded market will follow shortly after. This is something which they weren't able to achieve with Windows CE because it was developed on a different code base.
It remains to be seen whether Microsoft will be able to shrink down WIndows XP Embedded to fit some of the smaller applications CE is used in. If not, then Microsoft may decide to withdraw from this part of the market as not being worth their while. This is not a decision they are in a position to make at this time though.

However having said the above, I wouldn't let that affect me if I were considering buying a Siemens Multipanel operator panel and creating an MMI system using Protool. In this case, you are just buying a Siemens MMI panel and don't really care what operating system is in it. If Windows CE disappears, Siemens will come out with another product based on some other operating system and you can load your Protool program to it.

I wouldn't though, invest a lot of effort in developing any custom code or special configurations which depend directly upon Windows CE as it may become unsupportable within a few years (or less).


--

************************
Michael Griffin
London, Ont. Canada
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Mintchell, Gary (Cahners)

I saw Michael Griffin's comments about Windows CE and Embedded XP. I think that you will find that Windows CE is here to stay. It is Microsoft's
"embedded" operating system. It was probably developed for such future Microsoft products as set top boxes, etc. but found a home in industrial
automation applications. About the time the original CE was coming out, there appeared a need, particularly in manufacturing for an "embedded" version of Windows NT. The reason for this was that PC-based control and HMI
suppliers needed to run a full NT installation without what were seen as the weaknesses that included disk drives and long boot up. Microsoft released Windows 2000 as an upgrade to NT but delayed an upgrade to Embedded NT until the release of XP. Therefore, Windows XP Embedded is the next generation of Windows NT Embedded and is designed for those applications that require the
full operating system. Windows CE is still being upgraded and is available for embedded applications (embedded control, small HMI devices, etc.).

Meanwhile, for those who are fans of a Linux choice, I see that the Embedded Linux Consortium will be announcing progress toward a standard at the Embedded Systems Conference in San Francisco March 12. News item is on the CE Web site.

Gary Mintchell, Senior Editor
Control Engineering Magazine
Machine and Embedded Control and HMI
1227 Colonial Drive
Sidney, OH 45365-3457
937.498.9431
http://www.controleng.com
 
T
According to the Siemens S5 to S7 manual, the following modules may be used an adapter casing to plug into an S7 system. IP240, IP242B, IP244, IP246, IP247, WF705, WF706, WF721, WF723a/b/c.

Since we don't have any of those modules, the S5 modules we have will have to stay in an S5 rack.

Also according to the S5 to S7 manual, in order for the S5 racks to connect to S7 racks, the following conditions must be met...

The S5 interface module must be IM314 (ours is IM312), the S7 interface module must be IM463-2, and the S5 expansion rack must be EU 183, EU185, ER701-2, or ER701-3. (Ours is 184)

So,the cost to maker the S5 racks visible to
an S7 system are prohibitive. Therefore all our S5 stuff will have to continue to live in S5 racks.

I looked at the MP370 panel and with one maybe two
exception(s), it seems like a good choice for
the job. It natively speeks AS511, so I could
develop the screens (around 40), then connect it up to the S5 system and verify operation.
According to the Siemens rep, there are also no
tag charges (using Protool). My big problem is the
size of the panel. Currently our operators are using a 17" panel. They were so happy when I moved
them up from a 14", that going down to a 12"
screen just isn't feesible. My other concern is Protool. I tried to install the demo, but it wouldn't do anything. So I have no feel for what the environment is like.

I tried the WinCC demo. Somewhat intimidating.
I am not a hardcore programmer, and the thought
of using some VC++ tool to code every property and
every function of every screen object is to much
work. It's a BIG tool, and if that's all I did,
it would be worth learning, but it's pretty hard
to justify for 1 job.

All in all, it makes the thought of entering all the tags in Labview, a lot more palatable. I tried using the Lookout AS511 driver to connect up a trial screen to the S5 system. No success,
I can get them to talk, but the driver doesn't
appear to give me acces to the io or flag areas,
just the data blocks. So to continue the experiment, I'll have to modify the S5 code, to
create another two or three data blocks, and copy
the flag data to them. Either that, or go looking
for another driver (Applicomb maybe??) that gives me access to the flag areas.

If I find a way under Labview, to do the job, I can get the screens functional and then tackle
the S5 to S7 code conversion. My HMI would still
be running on a BSOD box, but I won't have the
expenses of buying and learning a new tool.

Am I missing anything???
thanx
:->
tb
[email protected]
 
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Daniele Zanardini

We are using with success in our plants the MP270 MultiPanel from Siemens. It is a low cost operator panel with large functionality, powerful and user friendly to configure it (with ProTool software).
The operative system Windows CE it's stable.
Very interesting is the new model MP270B, which will be available from the end of May.
At the same price it has a faster processor and on-board, Ethernet card + USB for mouse or keyboards.
Also interesting the new version of the ProTool configuration software (vers.6.0) which is already available...
It has lots of new very interesting featuring.

Best regards.
Daniele Zanardini
-Italy-
 
T
We, too, are contemplating the conversion from an S5 system to an S7 system. We, too, are running a medical cyclotron. We are having trouble, however, finding information on the conversion, and what our possibilities are.
We are thinking about either going with the S7-400 and using the appropriate CP cards to communicate with our I/O, or going with the WinAC option. We would like to use WinCC, or some other HMI that would allow is to log and trend data from the cyclotron, send out alarms, be able to control the cyclotron remotely, etc.
Our system here consists of a 135U central rack, with a 928 CPU, a CP527, and a CP143, with an expansion card going out to the expansion rack. That expansion rack is a 184U as well. We have various DIP,DOP,ADC,DAC modules as well.
Can you please let me know what progress you have made as far as the upgrade goes and where you found your information? You mentioned an S5 to S7 manual from Siemens, where would one find that?
Thank you very much.

Tom Idstein
 
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Michael Griffin

All the Siemens manuals can be down loaded from their web site. I can't be more specific than that, because I find it very difficult to find anything on their web site.

You may wish to check the archives for previous discussions on converting from an S5 system to S7-300/400. This subject has been covered
here before.

************************
Michael Griffin
London, Ont. Canada
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