Speed stagnation in 90% at the startup of GE5002C turbine
- Thread starter HOUCINOS
- Start date
Hi All.
Looks like this unit got problem TO raise it speed from 90% to FSNL.
Can you tell us where we can see Fsr min.. As it is displayed 14.6%...
Also is there a work that have been done on this unit prior to get the issue raised.
Is there any modification on software/hardware done... Before getting that issue..
Cheers
James
Hi James,
No work or modification on sorftware/hardware were done before getting this issue
The turbine is already running, we have forced L14HS: HP operating speed signal to 1 despite of it is set to 95% in the logic and the speed was 90% (Tip of experienced engineer).
we still looking for the problem's causes.
No work or modification on sorftware/hardware were done before getting this issue
The turbine is already running, we have forced L14HS: HP operating speed signal to 1 despite of it is set to 95% in the logic and the speed was 90% (Tip of experienced engineer).
we still looking for the problem's causes.
Hi Houcinous,
Thank you for your reply..
Well you did not answer on my question about FSR MIN..
We will be in better position to support you.. If you can share application code... Otherwise that would be impossible without answering to our questions..
Cheers
Jamal
I'm struggling to understand what FSRMIN has to do with not reaching 14HS.
I'm also struggling to understand the safety implications of forcing 14HS below 95% speed.... It doesn't seem wise.
Is it possible the second-stage nozzles are not operating correctly--or that the LP load is excessive???
I'm also struggling to understand the safety implications of forcing 14HS below 95% speed.... It doesn't seem wise.
Is it possible the second-stage nozzles are not operating correctly--or that the LP load is excessive???
Hi James
Find in attached image FSR MIN logic
I hope it's what you need
thank you for your reply
.I asked FSR MIN just for confirmation..
Indeed that's possible that second stage nozzle are not operating correctly..
I have my chill pill ingested. However, forcing HS is beyond my belief.
The gen exciter should not start until HS. The exciter should be detecting HS by itself.
The original poster got away with the experienced engineer stuff once.
Next time they might be picking up the pieces.
Still chillin'
Curious _One,
The two-shaft machine drives some kind of compressor—probably a centrifugal one.
But I do agree—the site dodged a bullet they might not avoid next time. If it can’t be forced, re-calibrate it and if that doesn’t work, well, replace the servo. Oh, and downloading and rebooting is also popular in the tribal knowledge cult.
We’ve been fortunate for too long; guess James took a bunch of chill pills and has awoken from the slumber and is not in a good mood.
This is just another Hail Mary post—too little information and a big wish that someone will know precisely what the cause is because all GE MS-5002C machines, are, of course exactly alike.
It’s also odd that there have been several recent posts—most also Hail Mary’s—about MS-5002 machines, all with very little information.
Hmmmm….
I need to go find my chill pills. And post them to James. It was nice while he was away, chillin’. I don’t need my stash any longer and I hate throwing good pharmaceuticals in the land fill.
The two-shaft machine drives some kind of compressor—probably a centrifugal one.
But I do agree—the site dodged a bullet they might not avoid next time. If it can’t be forced, re-calibrate it and if that doesn’t work, well, replace the servo. Oh, and downloading and rebooting is also popular in the tribal knowledge cult.
We’ve been fortunate for too long; guess James took a bunch of chill pills and has awoken from the slumber and is not in a good mood.
This is just another Hail Mary post—too little information and a big wish that someone will know precisely what the cause is because all GE MS-5002C machines, are, of course exactly alike.
It’s also odd that there have been several recent posts—most also Hail Mary’s—about MS-5002 machines, all with very little information.
Hmmmm….
I need to go find my chill pills. And post them to James. It was nice while he was away, chillin’. I don’t need my stash any longer and I hate throwing good pharmaceuticals in the land fill.
CSA,
Sorry for not doing my research on what the frame 5 was driving.
I have been generating megawatts for sooooo looong that I do not even consider a combustion turbine driving anything else.
I will try to do better in the future.
Never the less, My experience with the frame 5 and the frame 7 is that these workhorse turbines are "ALMOST" tougher than those that try to destroy them.
I have been a control system tech for over 3 decades. I am proud to say that "FORCING" is not part of my discovery process.
The original poster on the advice of a "experienced engineer" may have tested my "ALMOST" statement.
I still chillin'
P.S.
I clicked the start button on my 70 MW turbine this morning and it did not sync or load. I looked and it had sufficient gas pressure and was merely sitting there at full speed no load. I waited a while and a alarm was annuciated that said incomplete sequence and the turbine shut down. What shall I do??????????????
Sorry for not doing my research on what the frame 5 was driving.
I have been generating megawatts for sooooo looong that I do not even consider a combustion turbine driving anything else.
I will try to do better in the future.
Never the less, My experience with the frame 5 and the frame 7 is that these workhorse turbines are "ALMOST" tougher than those that try to destroy them.
I have been a control system tech for over 3 decades. I am proud to say that "FORCING" is not part of my discovery process.
The original poster on the advice of a "experienced engineer" may have tested my "ALMOST" statement.
I still chillin'
P.S.
I clicked the start button on my 70 MW turbine this morning and it did not sync or load. I looked and it had sufficient gas pressure and was merely sitting there at full speed no load. I waited a while and a alarm was annuciated that said incomplete sequence and the turbine shut down. What shall I do??????????????
CSA,
You said that it was nice when I was away... Hum.. I just take that statement as a joke Bien sur...
Cheers,
James
Review the f
Review the fist image posted. The machine drives a compressor and not generator
Houcinos,
The point is: Every GE-design Frame 5 heavy duty gas turbine is not the same as every other GE-design heavy duty gas turbine. And every GE-design two-shaft heavy duty gas turbine does not drive a compressor; a small number drive synchronous generators.
The more and better information you can provide in your original post the better and more concise the responses you will receive--which translates into a better experience for you. Don't assume things. This forum does not have avatars or a section in the personal profile where the poster can provide information on the equipment being troubleshot or the experience of the poster that responders can refer to when formulating a response. As a result we are reduced to trying to briefly describe some possible common causes to investigate and, as we often do, asking a lot of questions (which some original posters do not like and usually only selectively respond to--without providing any useful information about what tests or solutions have been tried and--more importantly--what the results were).
GE-design heavy duty gas turbines are complicated pieces of marvelous engineering and function. Sometimes, but not often, problems can be quickly identified and solutions presented. In this case, there just isn't enough information to allow that to occur. And, the majority of GE-design heavy duty gas turbines and control systems discussed on this site are synchronous generator drives. And most are also single-shaft turbines.
You likely have--but failed to tell us--a GE Speedtronic or Mark* turbine control system and if it's digital one it has both Process Alarms AND Diagnostic Alarms. None of the responders to this thread--most notably, myself included--failed (miserably) to ask what alarms were present when the problem was occurring. Because, while GE control systems can annunciate tens of cryptic Process- and Diagnostic Alarms they are VERY OFTEN useful in troubleshooting problems, though most operators, technicians and supervisors and Plant Managers just ignore alarms even when the unit trips..... Which is just poor practice.
So, if you want more help with this problem you will need to list in chronological order with the date/time stamps the alarms, both Process- and Diagnostic, that were active at the time of the problem. You would most likely be amazed at what we might be able to tell you.
If the unit does not have a GE turbine control system if you told us what alarms were present we might still be able to help.
But without the alarm information there's very little more we can offer. Even GE would ask for the alarm list.
Help us to help you. It's as simple as that.
Blessed day.
The point is: Every GE-design Frame 5 heavy duty gas turbine is not the same as every other GE-design heavy duty gas turbine. And every GE-design two-shaft heavy duty gas turbine does not drive a compressor; a small number drive synchronous generators.
The more and better information you can provide in your original post the better and more concise the responses you will receive--which translates into a better experience for you. Don't assume things. This forum does not have avatars or a section in the personal profile where the poster can provide information on the equipment being troubleshot or the experience of the poster that responders can refer to when formulating a response. As a result we are reduced to trying to briefly describe some possible common causes to investigate and, as we often do, asking a lot of questions (which some original posters do not like and usually only selectively respond to--without providing any useful information about what tests or solutions have been tried and--more importantly--what the results were).
GE-design heavy duty gas turbines are complicated pieces of marvelous engineering and function. Sometimes, but not often, problems can be quickly identified and solutions presented. In this case, there just isn't enough information to allow that to occur. And, the majority of GE-design heavy duty gas turbines and control systems discussed on this site are synchronous generator drives. And most are also single-shaft turbines.
You likely have--but failed to tell us--a GE Speedtronic or Mark* turbine control system and if it's digital one it has both Process Alarms AND Diagnostic Alarms. None of the responders to this thread--most notably, myself included--failed (miserably) to ask what alarms were present when the problem was occurring. Because, while GE control systems can annunciate tens of cryptic Process- and Diagnostic Alarms they are VERY OFTEN useful in troubleshooting problems, though most operators, technicians and supervisors and Plant Managers just ignore alarms even when the unit trips..... Which is just poor practice.
So, if you want more help with this problem you will need to list in chronological order with the date/time stamps the alarms, both Process- and Diagnostic, that were active at the time of the problem. You would most likely be amazed at what we might be able to tell you.
If the unit does not have a GE turbine control system if you told us what alarms were present we might still be able to help.
But without the alarm information there's very little more we can offer. Even GE would ask for the alarm list.
Help us to help you. It's as simple as that.
Blessed day.
A comment or two:
I believe the 5002C is an upgrade to the 5002A which uses the "Mary" axial compressor on the gas turbine HP shaft, which would mean fixed IGV's. That means a hang-up in IGV control is NOT a source of the problem. (If, in fact, the "C" is an upgrade to the "B" then that uses the "Nancy" compressor and IGV control could be a source of the problem and forcing L14HS really should not be done.)
I agree with the comments that forcing L14HS TRUE is not a good idea. One function of 14HS on shut down is to open the compressor bleed valves, so if the signal is still forced during a shutdown there is some potential for compressor stall. (I don't think it's a problem on a trip, since loss of the L4 signal should also open the bleed valves.)
The 2nd stage nozzle control system could be a source of the problem. The 2nd stage nozzles control the energy split between the HP and LP shafts; my recollection is that is was set up as a speed control for the HP shaft and it wanted to keep the speed at 100%.
I believe the 5002C is an upgrade to the 5002A which uses the "Mary" axial compressor on the gas turbine HP shaft, which would mean fixed IGV's. That means a hang-up in IGV control is NOT a source of the problem. (If, in fact, the "C" is an upgrade to the "B" then that uses the "Nancy" compressor and IGV control could be a source of the problem and forcing L14HS really should not be done.)
I agree with the comments that forcing L14HS TRUE is not a good idea. One function of 14HS on shut down is to open the compressor bleed valves, so if the signal is still forced during a shutdown there is some potential for compressor stall. (I don't think it's a problem on a trip, since loss of the L4 signal should also open the bleed valves.)
The 2nd stage nozzle control system could be a source of the problem. The 2nd stage nozzles control the energy split between the HP and LP shafts; my recollection is that is was set up as a speed control for the HP shaft and it wanted to keep the speed at 100%.
otised,
Thank you for jumping in.
It seems you have knowledge of the old frame 5 and the upgrade solutions. I would agree but my knowledge of these machines is limited.
I have not spent any time learning the frame 5 other than working on the old Mark I control systems that ran them. So, did I fix the MKI, yes I did. And left the site.
What you did notice is that my contributions on this site sometimes lack research. Thank you!
CSA and ControlsGuy25,
I offer my apoligy.
In the future,
I will limit my contributions to things I have direct knowledge of.
Notice to the 1 time question contributors with limited info. NO answer from me ever again.
CSA,
I forgot to say the pics the original poster sent are from Windows based Cimplicity at least version 6. The logic is at least MK6 from control system toolbox.
Oh nice... What this have to do with original post... Can you tell us
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