Start up sequence for MS5002E

Hi everyone,
I don't have enough experience in GT field and control system of it, and as result I have question about startup sequence GE MS5002E, what is the typical start up sequence for this type GT?. Our GT DCS is Mark VIe Simplex non TMR. Thanks a lot for your replies in advance.
 
Hi everyone,
I don't have enough experience in GT field and control system of it, and as result I have question about startup sequence GE MS5002E, what is the typical start up sequence for this type GT?. Our GT DCS is Mark VIe Simplex non TMR. Thanks a lot for your replies in advance.
Sorry, I don't have for a MS5002 but I have for a MS3002 an old document. Pretty much most of the systems are the same the 3002 is just smaller (About 9Mw). The document is old from around MKII Speedtronic days but, particularly for Control & Start-up I think it will help you.
Take a look first then get back if you need more help, I've done many MS5002 machines
Maybe someone else can post something better ??
 

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Sorry, I don't have for a MS5002 but I have for a MS3002 an old document. Pretty much most of the systems are the same the 3002 is just smaller (About 9Mw). The document is old from around MKII Speedtronic days but, particularly for Control & Start-up I think it will help you.
Take a look first then get back if you need more help, I've done many MS5002 machines
Maybe someone else can post something better ??
HI, Great thank you for your reply, I agreed with you that these units are similar, but of course there is some differences as construction, gas fuel system and etc. Maybe if you have huge experience with GT MS5002 that you will have documents like control specification or control philosophy. I am interested to know about Combustion system DLN 2.5H for this unit, and I think that There many people here who met these units and know logic for it or trip and alarm list, cause and effect list.
But any way I want to say great THANKS for your reply, warm wishes.
 
HI, Great thank you for your reply, I agreed with you that these units are similar, but of course there is some differences as construction, gas fuel system and etc. Maybe if you have huge experience with GT MS5002 that you will have documents like control specification or control philosophy. I am interested to know about Combustion system DLN 2.5H for this unit, and I think that There many people here who met these units and know logic for it or trip and alarm list, cause and effect list.
But any way I want to say great THANKS for your reply, warm wishes.
HI, Great thank you for your reply, I agreed with you that these units are similar, but of course there is some differences as construction, gas fuel system and etc. Maybe if you have huge experience with GT MS5002 that you will have documents like control specification or control philosophy. I am interested to know about Combustion system DLN 2.5H for this unit, and I think that There many people here who met these units and know logic for it or trip and alarm list, cause and effect list.
But any way I want to say great THANKS for your reply, warm wishes.
There are many documents on DLN on the GE website, the latest DLN for the MS5002 is 2.6, DLN on the twin shaft it is really no different to the single shaft machine.
Control Specs. are completely machine specific by site so I never keep any and to use one for a different machine would just be confusing.
 
There are many documents on DLN on the GE website, the latest DLN for the MS5002 is 2.6, DLN on the twin shaft it is really no different to the single shaft machine.
Control Specs. are completely machine specific by site so I never keep any and to use one for a different machine would just be confusing.
I couldn't find any information about 2.5H DLN on GE website official. Control spec. could describe and explain some principes of GT with detail description. I will be very glad if you can share any control spec. this unit (MS5002) for example. I think that it isn't difficult for you.
I will be very thank you for any help!
 
I think that you have to have some information for MS 5002 because of you experience with this unit.
I'm a happily retired engineer, I don't keep piles of information for old jobs, if I had something that was relevant I would give it to you. I don't think that you understand, the MS5002 was for mechanical drive applications only, people who worked in power generation would never see these machines. That's why you are getting much response.
 
You are right, we will use this machine for gas booster compressor in gas field as drive , and because of it I want to get more logic details of dcs during startup, trip, shutdown and etc. Finally, I am just happy to talk to you about it, and I am sorry if I was too importunate, best wishes
 
ControlEng999,

It would seem that you don't have access to the Application Code running in the Mark VIe, nor the P&IDs for the unit. Yes, a Control Spec would be of some help, but one would STILL require the Application Code (the program viewable in ToolboxST) and the P&IDs to make sense of what was written in the Control Spec.

Usually, most GE-design Frame 5 two-shaft heavy duty gas turbines are produced by GE in Florence, Italy, and the Control Spec's they write are usually pretty good--but not always. I, personally, have not even ever heard of DLN-2.5H.... but, as glenmorangie says it's probably pretty close to DLN-2.6 (which is something I find odd, because Frame 5s usually only had DLN-I--but maybe because the MS-5002E you are referring to is a two-shaft machine there is some version of DLN-2.n which is not being used for low emissions--that's my SWAG (Scientific Wild-Arsed Guess)).

The thing about DLN-2.n systems is they don't stage combustion like they do in DLN-I combustors. There is only one combustion in DLN-2.x combustors, where there are two combustion zones in DLN-I combustors.

But, if you don't have access to the manuals and Application Code, anything you read is most likely only going to be about 88.674% correct anyway. GE has a bad habit of producing documentation, then changing system design or operation, and never changing the documentation. The only "written" thing that matters is what is programmed in the Mark*. Full Stop. Period. You can read manuals, and GE publications and Control Spec's until your eyes bug out and your mind explodes--but the ONLY thing that matters is what's in the Mark*. Nothing else.

The Control Spec can be helpful, and the P&IDs will DEFINITELY be helpful. But it's still what's in the Mark* that is the FINAL "word" on how the unit operates.

If you don't have access to the documentation provided by GE or the packager of the turbine you are (or want to be...) working on, you are going to have a hard time learning or understanding. I know all too many sites will not allow operators to have access to the manuals--which is a shame, and very short-sighted. And, they don't have any training--except "on-the-job-training" ("OJT") which can sometimes be very good, but not very often. (In many cases the answers one gets to questions about why something is done, is, "Because we've always done it that way!" and that's the worst answer anyone can get--because it means the person who uttered those words doesn't really know why and has very little business teaching anyone or even operating a multi-million dollar machine.)

As glenmorangie said--we don't get a lot of questions about two-shaft mechanical drive units here on control.com. Nor does it seem like there are a lot of people willing to share their knowledge about two-shaft machines, either. Most of the questions and experience here on control.com is related to single-shaft, heavy duty GE-design machines that drive AC generators (alternators).

Best of luck!
 
Hi,
Thanks for your advice and full answer, but I think that in my case I need to wait some documentations from GE and their subcontractors like control spec. And O&M manual and etc. I agree with you completely but any way I am interested to look any example of con.spec. for this unit (MS5002), because near time I will face with it, I just want to be ready to it.
Thank you CSA , best wishes
 
ControlEng999,

"... I think that in my case I need to wait some documentations from GE and their subcontractors ..."

What is your "case"? Is a new MS5002E being installed at your plant? Are you working at a new plant where an MS5002E is being installed?

Have you seen this video?

It looks like the axial compressor uses variable stator vane technology, the unit has six (6) can-annular combustors and a power turbine (LP turbine) based on LM-2500 technology to drive the load. The video is a little old, and I'm sure the new units being produced today use the Mark VIe.

Interesting unit. Good on you if you're trying to learn about the unit prior to installation and commissioning. But, to do so with the O&M manuals and Control Spec and such you are going to need to get access to the documentation it seems.

As glenmorangie said, two-shaft mechanical-drive heavy duty gas turbines are not nearly as common as single-shaft generator-drive heavy duty gas turbines. That is changing somewhat with more LNG plants being built, but, it's still kind of a really, really small world (of two-shaft heavy duty mechanical-drive gas turbines).

You might try searching for a Users' Group for MS5002 heavy duty gas turbines; if you work for an owner or a soon-to-be owner you can probably register (for free) to gain access to the forums and information available on the Users' Group website where you will probably learn a LOT and hopefully after you have some experience contribute your knowledge and experience to others on the site. Or, maybe even back here at Control.com!

Best of luck!
 
CSA,
Thank you for your reply, I have seen this video, it has role for introducing this machine, general description with positive sides .
In my case , it means that I will work on site with this machine, and I want to know this GT better during installation, commissioning and start up and will be ready to these stages.
As you know, in the internet we can find everything but it is not that we need.
And I don't think that there is a forum better than control. com. This resource is very helpful, and I have to say thank for owner of it.
Best regards
 
ControlEng999,

So, about searching the World Wide Web for information.... Sometimes one can get extremely lucky and find the results in the first page, or sometimes on subsequent pages of search results. But, searching means using different search terms and using key words and terms from your first search(es) to refine your searches. Also, learning to use the syntax of your preferred World Wide Web search engine can be very helpful. (Look at the Search 'Help' for you preferred World Wide Web search engine; you will find ways to exclude or include certain words or terms in order to narrow your searches even further).

As for being prepared for a new installation and commissioning, that's very commendable. I want to caution you, though, that commissioning is very tedious work and requires a lot of attention to detail as well as the patience of a Saint. Commissioning is almost always hugely affected by installation, which almost always requires more time than allotted. And when installation doesn't finish on time, instead of moving the project completion date back to include the time required by installation to allow commissioning the time they require to do their job the completion date never changes. So, commissioning gets "squeezed" meaning they have less time to do their job. And, often, commissioning is asked to start their work before installation is finished--meaning often the wires and cables have not been fully installed and terminated, and many of the devices which will eventually be connected to the turbine control system (not the DCS) are also not installed. It makes the task of commissioning VERY difficult, having to start a task, only to find the installation work that needs to be completed is only partially completed (in most cases) or not even started (in some cases). This causes the commissioning personnel to have to re-adjust their schedule of activities, and to eventually come back to those previously unfinished installation activities.

And, project management have another "trick" they like to play on commissioning personnel when installation is running late. They like to bring in extra commissioning personnel to work around the clock (24 hours per day), which can really make for some difficult times and troubles. (Day shift completes something, and night shift doesn't think it was done correctly, so then undo part of the work, and then day shift comes back and undoes what night shift did--and so on. This can happen many times during the course of commissioning...!)

Finally, commissioning work is VERY different from maintenance and operations--VERY DIFFERENT. It's very difficult to try to follow and work alongside commissioning personnel to try to learn control system maintenance and turbine and auxiliary operations. For many reasons, not the least of which is described in the paragraphs above.

My recommendation for people trying to learn about turbine control systems and operations during construction/installation and commissioning is to get the O&M manuals and make copies of the P&IDs, and the Device Summary and the Control Specifications for yourself (and maybe for your colleagues, too). That way you can make notes (using a pen and pencil and highlighters) on your copies for future reference as you learn and discover things. Take the P&IDs and make sure that you know the location of every device on every P&ID, and make sure you know the calibration or scaling of every device on every P&ID. This will be as much or more valuable than just about any formal training you can take--knowing where devices and instruments are physically located and how they should be calibrated/scaled. This helps a LOT when trying to troubleshoot alarms during commissioning and after commissioning.

You should try to develop a relationship with one of the commissioning personnel and ask that person to allow you to watch and listen and learn. And, then, at an appropriate time you can ask questions (such as when there is a break in the "action"), such as described above and below.

UNLESS installation (construction) is finished before commissioning starts, there are going to be LOTS of starts and stops on commissioning activities--for the reasons described above. It's going to seem unorganized and illogical (if installation/construction isn't finished before commissioning begins!) and it's going to be difficult for the commissioning personnel to have to explain why they had to stop the activities planned for today or this morning or this afternoon, and move to something else, perhaps only to find that isn't ready for commissioning either. It can be very frustrating for all involved, and project management is always asking why commissioning is taking so long.... never realizing their inept management of construction/installation has led to this situation. They just blame commissioning and construction/installation never gets the proper blame they deserve. They need to be able to blame delays on someone or something--and it's usually commissioning. Which is behind schedule before they even start because of construction/installation.

Now, to be fair, some jobs are managed better than others--but those are the exception rather than the rule, meaning most jobs are not managed very well--and I'm speaking of making construction/installation keep to a schedule and asking them why they are behind schedule and how they are going to get back on schedule. Management looks at the entire schedule and says, "We have lots of time; commissioning can move a little faster--or, as usual, they will always be late!"

You are right--Control.com is a very good resource. You are being pro-active trying to get information early and study. Again, I would suggest you find the Frame 5 Users' Group website and register there (I don't know the URL). I would bet you can find some information about MS-5002E units there.

Best of luck!
 
Hi CSA,
You are right about commissioning period and installation, it can take long time, however In these periods I can learn this unit better.
The participation in loop check procedure can give me more knowledge than course training, because it gives me more practice skills and methods for adjustment field devices. It will be very helpful, but I don't have to forget about control logic algorithm, because these elements can't work without each other.
I have found the 5 frame user's forum, but I am not sure that everyone can get access to this portal and I am afraid of they can ask me about additional information about plant, and serial number of unit, and name of contract manager, because currently I don't have this information.
Thank for your reply, best wishes
 
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