Technology Stocks

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Shantanu Apte

It is a puzzle to me . Will anybody throw some light ? If people who conceptualize , develop and implement some of the best techniques used in manufacturing and process automation , do not belong to Technology then what is the meaning of TECHNOLOGY ?
 
For the same reason IT system programmers make $ 150K per year, drive Saab's and Hummer's, work in air conditioned offices, play golf 3 times per week with the boss (you get the idea)... while PLC, HMI and control system programmers make next to minimum wage, work 25 hour days, every weekend, and usually end up (if their lucky) with a desk in the back corner of the maintenance area ! Presidents, CEO's, and other people with money to invest, don't seem to take industrial automation seriously ! They seem to have this warped mindset, that any kid with a grade 1 education, can program an assembly line using a Commodore 64,... but that it takes a divine entity to set up a PC so that it will run solitaire !
 
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Well, now wait a minute, Jim. That's only part of the answer. The biggest part, but not the whole enchilada. You are right, as far as it goes, but there has always been a media-induced bias between "technology" (for which, read computers, chips and software, and then Internet) and "manufacturing"...and automation companies have always been "tarred with the brush" of manufacturing. This has caused investment to flee, and this was especially bad in the past five years, where any half-or-quarter-baked internet scheme could get millions in VC funding, but a good, solid automation business plan couldn't. Now, you can argue that the internet schemes met the VC guidelines of 500% growth in 2 years, but actually, 90% of them didn't in the end do that, eh? There are lots of opportunities for companies to make money in the automation environment, as long as they have good business plans and know what they want to do. The jury is still out on Rockwell et al. moving into the integrator space. GM Ypsilanti isn't thrilled with AB as an integrator, from what I hear, while they were much happier with AB as a supplier. Seems AB isn't as good at the one as they are at the other... <duck and roll> But much of the reason automation companies don't count, either on the stock market, or on a resume, as technology companies is image and glitz, not substance. Walt Boyes --------------------------------------------- Walt Boyes -- Telesian Technology Inc. [email protected] 21118 SE 278th Place - Maple Valley, WA 98038 253-709-5046 cell 425-432-8262 home office fax:801-749-7142 ICQ: 59435534 Telesian Technology, an e-Business services firm specializing in industrial enterprises. http://www.telesian.com ------------------------------------------
 
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Anthony Kerstens

Hey Bob. That's a real negative attitude you have there. Instead of bitching at us about it, why don't you grab an economics book and lookup supply and demand. And if you don't like what you find, change careers. Anthony Kerstens P.Eng.
 
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Curt Wuollet

Hi Bob Being on both sides of the fence, I had to comment on this. Because the Automation World has A "Windows Only" attitude and because this is the major selling point and "ease of use" and "no training required" because "everybody runs Windows" are echoed to the rafters. and sold to those same executives, you have a problem. They bought it! It worked! After years of hearing that "it's Windows, anyone can do it!", that's what you get. But it's the same in IS. I don't know how many times I've been told, "We're going to Windows so we don't need any experts". It would be funny if they weren't absolutely serious. And 95% of the folks on this list keep telling me that's a good thing and they don't want to have to learn anything else. It's hard to be taken seriously when your tools are the same as your PHB uses. If he can run Microsoft Golf, how much more can it take to run your "game"? He knows he's a lot smarter than you anyway. Professionals using Amatuer tools. And even if we get past the game interface to your PLC's, everyone wants to do applications in Ladder Logic. And Why, if I ask? So the electrician or the night operator can fix things. Hmmm....I wonder where they got the impression that "anyone can do it". And if not Ladder, dragging and dropping pictures or drawing flow charts. None of those hard old command lines or programming in languages. Perish the thought, that's what "programmers" do. Hmm...Doesn't look very hard. You in the automation industry have rushed and strived to particpate in the "dumbing down" of your profession. And from everything I've read and the dialogs I've had on this list, you'll fight tooth and nail to keep it that way. Nothing more challanging allowed. Any divergent ideas are to be scorned. "We _need_ to use what the rest of the company uses, period." And, buy everything off the shelf, no matter what the usury. Just like consumers. Plug and play. "We want to use what every body else uses and do what everyone else does" There's a lot of differentiation in that. Congratulations! You've achieved your goal of standardizing on the lowest common denominators. IS is climbing out of that slowly and moving forward again. Doing new things with new tools that don't come in the Windows box. Maybe management is right. Regards cww
 
Gee! I warned myself not to get into this, but......... First off, most IT specialists I know come in a little late, because engineering and accounting are working on urgent stuff in the morning, then they stay till 8, 10, 2 in the morning, to complete the really tough tasks... with skills they had to learn teaching themselves on the weekend, because unlike us automation folk everything they learned in school is obsolete. Oh and the ones that are on their own, like our Systems Integrators, bill by the hour, but when there's nothing in the books about the problem and it takes them an extra 25 hours to solve a problem - managers refuse to pay them for their time. Most of the young guys are so gun shy they just don't even try and charge for it anymore... $150k.... I don't think so... maybe because they're young (most feel like ball players, they'll be obsolete in less than 15 years).... we think they make all that money, but none of the IT guys at the same level as design engineers make that much... Only a few Very Senior CIOs. As for the technology respect in automation today: Unfortunately most SIs get confronted with managers who have little knowledge of the level of high tech used in this industry today, and that is why they are talking to SIs in the first place. Actually control has become as advanced as any other part of the computer world and when you call into play decisions about real time, EMI noise and filtering, operating languages, DLLs, and all the performance enhancing software it just might be the most sophisticated of all the computer industries... who else uses an interferometer for feedback and moves a couple of stages into position within a few angstroms of the target while all the time being bombarded with x-rays???? I find the real managers of these OEM companies (especially in areas like semi manufacturing equipment) to be refreshingly brilliant and up to date with the scope of the technical problems they face in motion control. If anything it's the lack of qualified design engineers that inhibits them from doing things more accurately and faster. These managers have great staffs of hard working automation MEs, EEs, and Software Engs. They don't have to use SIs, and therefore many of you never get the opportunity to see that respect for your craft... Well, be sure it is there! Just go to a place like Applied Materials and ask the CEO about PID loops, and I bet you'll be surprised. Automation is at the heart of throughput and yield and any senior manager worth his sole knows this. As for companies mentioned in the high tech markets, the problem is one of knowing who owns whom.... You don't hear about Kollmorgan or Pac Sci, or API; they're all under Danaher now and who wouldn't consider Rockwell as hi-tech.. of course they own the rest of us... There are a few others, but for the most part they're privately owned and probably won't be mentioned on CNBC... Yeah, I think we're all underpaid and over worked... but don't let the stock market tell you your professions not respected! Bob Close Executive V.P. Precision MicroControl Corp TELE 760-930-0101 FAX 760-930-0222 [email protected]
 
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Richard Dewees

If you are a PLC, HMI and control system programmer and you are making next to minimum wage you need to learn to ask for a raise.
 
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D. C. Pittendrigh

Hi All I personally found Bob's comments to be a rather valid assesment of the situation, this appears to be an international problem and if I may quote the younger generation more likely to be found in that other "profession", IT sucks. I can also set up a domain server, reserve IP addresses, create a DHCP scope, define a security policy, pass my MCSE exams and play solitaire, to name but a few. Excepting the last two, I deal with these issues almost daily, and I think quite competently too, and I am an "automation engineer". I too have the sense that if I was aplying my skills from the comparative comfort of an air-conditioned computer room, that I could double my income, but then I would give up that part of my job which allows me to play with my clients multi million dollar machines, upon which the essence of his turnover relies, I would have to give up worrying about protecting peoples lives from the vagaries of man-eating automated machines and I wouldn't get to wash coal dust, iron ore, sulphur, fertilizer and other non-describable things off my 6 year old VW jetta nearly as often, I mean life would be hell, but then I am a funny guy........ Oh and incidentally Anthony, most of us do it because it turns us on to work in automation, and despite your perception of supply and demand, there appears to be a glut of MCSE's around, since Bill made it popular to formalize everything from a power user upwards, and if anything the rules of supply and demand should......... Oh what the heck. Cheers Donald Pittendrigh
 
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Timothy P. Heckman

I have worked both sides of the fence.... There are bad programmers in IT & Eng. and the worlds are merging faster than you think. I don't buy the argument that an electrician or night operator can fix it - I always seem to get called by the electrician in the middle of the night. I think the real differentiator is the degree of difficulty of the problem and the resultant complexity of the solution. I strongly do not like ladder. Flow is better, but I can code up an If-Then statement faster than I can connect the lines with the flow charting tool. With a simple machine design, most people can grab the concept in ladder, but for some reason... it's harder for some to code the same solution in script. In the IT world, the desired solution is inherently abstracted from the problem to be solved. There are many ways to skin the cat and some truly creative solutions sometimes surface. On the flip side, some of the work is data in/data out.... If you like immediate gratification from your coding efforts then this type of work is not very satisfying. The Eng. needs to know some electrical theory, the IT professional needs to understand some system architecture. If you prove yourself and perform at a high level taking on the tough challenges, you can be well paid in either profession. [email protected]
 
Automation List : I've observed with interest, sadness and amusement the discussion on Technology Stocks. I've been traveling, so couldn't respond earlier. Highlights from my perspective : Bob <[email protected]> said : > For the same reason IT system programmers make $ 150K per year, drive > Saab's and Hummer's, work in air conditioned offices, play golf 3 times > per week with the boss (you get the idea)... while PLC, HMI and control > system programmers make next to minimum wage, work 25 hour days, every > weekend, and usually end up (if their lucky) with a desk in the back > corner of the maintenance area ! > Presidents, CEO's, and other people with money to invest, don't seem to > take industrial automation seriously ! ....<clip> Jim Pinto says : Poor, Bob. One wonders who has "chained" him to his HMI, PLC job.... Anthony Kerstens responded : >Hey Bob. That's a real negative attitude you have there. >Instead of bitching at us about it, why don't you grab an >economics book and lookup supply and demand. And if you don't >like what you find, change careers. Jim : Amen, brother Kerstens! I couldn't have put it better! Walt Boyes brought up : > there has always been a media-induced bias between "technology" >(for which, read computers, chips and software, and then Internet) > and "manufacturing"...and automation companies have >always been "tarred with the brush" of manufacturing. Jim: Walt is right - Automation is considered "manufacturing" - which is out. A lot of "manufacturing" has gone offshore. Walt continues : <clip> > This has caused investment to flee >There are lots of opportunities for companies to make money in the >automation environment, as long as they have good business plans >and know what they want to do. Jim : Wrong, Walt! There are VERY FEW automation environment companies growing and making money, I'm sorry to say. The trend, right now, is down. So, any thinking "capitalist" avoids this business. Richard Dewees <[email protected]> suggests : >If you are a PLC, HMI and control system programmer >and you are making next to minimum wage you need >to learn to ask for a raise. Jim : Right, Richard! And, you're unlikely to get one, unless your company is one of the few that is doing well (correct me, if you know ANY automation company that is growing and pays well). Ipso facto : Find a job in another, faster-growing business! Or, stop complaining, and buckle down for the long haul. See - 2001:Industrial Automation Outlook : http://www.jimpinto.com/writings/outlook2001.html Sorry to burst your bubble..... Cheers: jim ----------/ Jim Pinto email : [email protected] web: www.JimPinto.com San Diego, CA., USA ----------/
 
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> > For the same reason IT system programmers make $ 150K per year, drive > > Saab's and Hummer's, work in air conditioned offices, play golf 3 times > > per week with the boss (you get the idea)... while PLC, HMI and control > > system programmers make next to minimum wage, work 25 hour days, every > > weekend, and usually end up (if their lucky) with a desk in the back > > corner of the maintenance area ! I think the case is a bit over stated but the fact is that sexy stuff like web sites which are of dubious value for most companys get the attention and money, while the things that might really affect the bottom line get starved because the money and attention is elsewhere. Bob Peterson
 
Hi List, I think job satisfaction matters! As long as you are happy and got thrill in the job it does not matter IT or Automation. Every one's job is equally important right from a barber to a white collared IT corporate!!! BR/Girish
 
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Anthony Kerstens

Don't try to drag Bill Gates into this. The situation is similar for Oracle, Novel, and the many acronym technologies. As for my "perception", it always comes down to supply and demand. The employer is the consumer. The employee is the producer. Both have something to offer and both have expectations. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Now, for the meat of the situation. I said what I did before because I was disgusted with the attitude. The only reason to bitch and complain about something is to seek consolation. That consolation is obtained by soliciting a negative response from others to justify your own negative feelings. That action drags down the demeanour of others, is negative behaviour, and is unacceptable at the water cooler, meetings, or anywhere else people gather for discussions. You, believe it or not, are in control. If you don't like what you're doing, you should evaluate the situation before you and make a decision. Your decisions are: 1. Bitch and complain. Likely you will always find a chorus to sing with you. That does not solve your problem and doesn't do the people around you any good either. 2. Put up and do your job. You will likely find ways to deal with the problems, and become a stronger person and a better engineer. 3. Go for job interviews only if the problem can't be taken head on. The bottom line is that you have to take control of your own situation. If someone wants advice. Great. I will happily offer it. If someone wants to bitch, I will not be a chorus, and I will not let anyone treat me in that manner. Anthony Kerstens P.Eng.
 
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Jorge Delgado

What are you complaining about? Here in Mexico, an engineer makes 18-20,000 pesos a month? ($1 U.S. Dollar = 9.6 Mx. Pesos.... You do the math!) Jorge...
 
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Ranjan Acharya

With regards to the comparison of Mexican salaries to the "minimum wage" of a US engineer, the gentleman from Mexico is correct -- yup, don't complain, as old Supermac or Harold Macmillan said "You've Never Had it So Good". Anyway, there are a lot of IT types "between jobs" who would be happy to make an engineer's salary right now. Unfortunately, perhaps a few engineers at loose ends too. For those of us North of the Border in Canada instead of South of the Border in Mexico, we also make a little less (but more than our Mexican compatriots). I don't complain though. It was my choice to be an engineer. RJ
 
Automation Listers : With the complaints about how much - and how little Engineers in Automation earn, Jorge Delgado said : >What are you complaining about? >Here in Mexico, an engineer makes 18-20,000 pesos a month? >($1 U.S. Dollar = 9.6 Mx. Pesos.... You do the math!) Jim Pinto broadens the horizon : And, in India, Engineers make about $ 500-1,000 per month. Any wonder that Microsoft, Hewlett Packard and others are moving developments to India (and other Far East places)? What is the essential and intrinsic difference in the quality of engineering - and innovation - in the 3 countries named? Cheers: jim ----------/ Jim Pinto email : [email protected] web: www.JimPinto.com San Diego, CA., USA ----------/
 
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Having worked with technical folk in and from many countries there is little to no difference in ranges of ability. But, the differences in the cost of living may be a significant factor. Bob Pawley
 
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Vladimir E. Zyubin

Dear Jim, Another "intrinsic" fact is that at least 20 of my old pals work now in Microsoft, HP and Sun. ;-) Unfortunately, I have no statistic how many percents of Russians, Mexicans, Indians and Chinese work in Microsoft, but I am sure that they are solving the _same_ tasks as their colleagues in other countries. There is the following "intrinsic" fact: HP has the policy for their affiliate divisions - income depends on country _not on quality_. Another "intrinsic" fact: statistically (Int'l Space Station project), the task one russian specialist solves demands 5-6 specialists from USA. So, your statement about quality is just a myth. (The "brain leak" problem exists) BTW, the dustmen and washers from USA have more incomes than their mexican colleagues as well... Is there other reason for the iron curtain around U.S.A.? Cheers from Siberia. Vladimir
 
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Hi Jim, I am one of the regular reader for your articles, which is really informative. In India Automation Engineers make about $500-1000 per month? I dont think so! Only multinationals like ABB, Invensys, Honeywell and few good consultancies may opt the same. Whereas Automation Engineers working in system houses as usual paid low. BR /Girish
 
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