I am through with college which sort of qualified me for this type of job but if its characteristics are such as I heard & experienced:

-stressfull- possibly long hours under pressure to get an industrial system up and running A.S.A.P., while every mistake might cause direct damage

-constant need to learn new stuff (hardware, bus, comm. standards etc.)- basically cool but might get tiresome with time

-possible long absence from home and family, depending on the job

-possible unpleasant working conditions (smelly, cold, noisy...)

-having to dig or ask around about the technology of the process in question (By the way can anyone direct me please to a source covering polyethilene process production or a beer brewery technology in terms of usable process equations/model?.. )

-very little time or authorisation to really be creative-experiment with stuff like system identification, estimation, and advanced control techniques

-IT or communication engineers probably top control people with their paychecks&benefits(?)
(is it irresponsible to do what you like instead
of what pays best once you start supporting your family?)

I ask, is it all worth the fun of setting up the system and finally seeing it work exactly as designed?

 

This was such an interesting note that I had to reply.

Once you have spent some time in the field on these startups you will understand why people want to get into the control industry.

There is nothing like the thrill of starting up a control system or plant. Your troubleshooting skills and ingenuity on solving issues certainly get a work-out.

Spending a number of years starting up and designing control systems and plants gives you skills that follow you through your career.

I would highly recommend it as a career path.

 

>.... I ask, is it all worth the fun of setting up the system and finally seeing it work exactly as designed?<

Of Course. Why else would we go through the long hours and low pay?

 

> I am through with college which sort of qualified me for this type of job but if its characteristics are such as I heard & experienced:
>
> -stressfull- possibly long hours under pressure to get an industrial system up and running A.S.A.P., while every mistake might cause direct damage
>

Sometimes.

> -constant need to learn new stuff (hardware, bus, comm. standards etc.)- basically cool but might get tiresome with time
>

Did you think your education was over when you graduated? You've not even begun, my friend. And it doesn't matter what field you're in...

> -possible long absence from home and family, depending on the job
>
> -possible unpleasant working conditions (smelly, cold, noisy...)
>

Sometimes (to both of the above).

> -having to dig or ask around about the technology of the process in question (By the way can anyone direct me please to a source covering polyethilene process production or a beer brewery technology in terms of usable process equations/model?.. )
>

See the remark above about learning.

> -very little time or authorisation to really be creative-experiment with stuff like system identification, estimation, and advanced control techniques
>

If you're interested in this kind of stuff, get a Ph.D. and do research.

> -IT or communication engineers probably top control people with their paychecks&benefits(?)
> (is it irresponsible to do what you like instead
> of what pays best once you start supporting your family?)
>

It is irresponsible to do something that makes you miserable, regardless of the pay/benefits.

> I ask, is it all worth the fun of setting up the system and finally seeing it work exactly as designed?

Absolutely!

 

Didn't you post the same question to PLCs.net about a year ago? Are you really interested in the answer, or do you just like to throw chum in the water and watch the feeding frenzy?

If you have to ask the 'is it worth it' question at this stage of your career, then for you, the answer is probably 'no'.

Thomas Carlyle wrote, "Happy is the man who has found his life's work". It sounds like you're still searching for yours.

 

Yes... sometimes I feel exhausted, but if you were born engineer you won't be happy doing anything else.

We are in the path to replace accountants,lawyers and all the other professions with machines (It will take at least 5 years from now). Join us, we're going to rule the world.

 

The thrill of actually seeing my system designs control a real plant (power plant, Steel Mill, chemical plants, refinery plants, copper smelters, chemical plant, pumping station, off shore rig....) is what keeps me in the business. The things I do make a tangible and very visible difference in society and peoples lives.

I also enjoy meeting people and leaning about their lives, local cultures and customs and viewpoints about the world. I have had the wonderful privilege of meeting Control workers and engineers from all around the world.

I know I can get more money and better working conditions doing other types of design jobs, but I wouldn't enjoy them as much.

 

> This was such an interesting note that I had to reply.
>
> Once you have spent some time in the field on these startups you will
> understand why people want to get into the control industry.
>
> There is nothing like the thrill of starting up a control system or
> plant. Your troubleshooting skills and ingenuity on solving issues
> certainly get a work-out.

You and I, and probably most of the people on this list, feel this way. But it constantly amazes me how the great majority of people neither know nor care how anything around them works. (How does it work? Either "Fine" or "Not very well" is the answer.) They live in a completely magical world, and they like it that way. I've been married to two of them, and my daughter is the same. You spend time trying to show them how the computer / TV / toilet / washing machine / refrigerator works and they
look at you with "...SO?..." in their eyes. Quite honestly, the world is far less different from the middle ages than we like to think it is. The first time I found "http://www.howstuffworks.com/":http://www.howstuffworks.com/ I sent the link to everybody in my address book I thought it was so great. Most of them yawned.

If the guy isn't driven by passion, then there's *ABSOLUTELY NO GOOD REASON* to waste his time in the field.

My $0.02

MB
--
Michael R. Batchelor - Industrial Informatics, Inc.

 

> I am through with college which sort of qualifyed me for this type of
> job but if its characteristics are such as I heard & experienced:

Lets do a comparison:

> -stressfull- possibly long hours under pressure to get an industrial
> system up and running A.S.A.P., while every mistake might cause direct
> damage

Versus a job where nothing you do matters one way or the other.

> -constant need to learn new stuff (hardware, bus, comm. standards
> etc.)- basically cool but might get tiresome with time

Versus a job where you never learn anything new and become obsolete 20 years before you are ready to retire.

> -possible long absence from home and family, depending on the job

I suppose this could be good or bad depending on your home and family. ;-) Some travel is fun. Alot of travel is pretty hard but it is still very interesting. You earn enough frequent flier miles you can treat your family to some real nice vacations you might otherwise not enjoy.

> -possible unpleasant working conditions (smelly, cold, noisy...)

On occassion this might be true. But most plants are much better today then they used to be. Besides the experiences are interesting anyway (I love the smell of cutting fluid in the morning).

> -having to dig or ask around about the technology of the process in
> question (By the way can anyone direct me please to a source covering
> polyethilene process production or a beer brewery technology in terms
> of usable process equations/model?.. )

Versus never having to meet anyone who is smarter than you (everything I know about beer can be found on the label of a can of Bud).

> -very little time or authorisation to really be creative-experiment
> with stuff like system identification, estimation, and advanced
> control techniques

Forgiveness is much easier to obtain than permission. Some of my best work ever was done on my own initiative. If the work is good the
"authorities" will recognize it. If they don't you need to get new "authorities" (aka: change jobs because you are working for idiots...you should always work with people smarter than you so you can learn something).

> -IT or communication engineers probably top control people with their
> paychecks&benefits(?) (is it irresponsible to do what you like instead
> of what pays best once you start supporting your family?)

Have you seen the unemployment statistics for IT people. Worse than it is for automation types. The important thing is to do something useful that requires personal knowledge. Knowing how to author a web page or build a MS-Access form is knowledge anybody that knows how to read and write can be taught. Knowing how to make 10,000 gallons of beer such that each gallon tastes exactly the same is a skill that is much harder to replace.

> I ask, is it all worth the fun of setting up the system and finally
> seeing it work exactly as designed?

Of course. Or you can always become a beach bum and play folk music with an open guitar case for quarters instead. You might occassionally get a buck or two even! The choices are endless. In the
end you really should do what you love. The rewards will come from doing what you love very well.

Regards,
Ralph Mackiewicz
SISCO, Inc.

 

I think it largely depends on your personal perspective. Here's mine.
As someone who has been around computing for a while, (we grew up together) I find it one of the most fascinating uses of computers. Most of the problems you speak of are certainly valid issues, but all are tied to the way it's practiced today. If you go for the mainstream, using OTS shrinkwrap and packaged hardware, it's largely
a mechanical process. Most of the job is straightforward and can become tedious. Because it has been simplified to the point that anyone can use the tools, it is underappreciated IMHO. We see here on the list that many folks truly believe that "anyone can do it". This is wrong, but widespread and leads to many of the bad attributes.
Many jobs _are_ obvious, and can be done with no special knowledge. But even on these, a good practitioner will make a big difference over
the life of a project. It's simply not readily apparent from the starting point. This has lead to a lot being taken for granted. People assume this stuff can simply be done by formula, X points will take Y time. No allowance for craft or skill and often sadly neglecting many details and what ifs.
The better practicioners still manage to get what's really needed into a project, often at the price of argument and strife. Quite often the
reward for doing it the right way first is to never work for that company again. Conversely, the most succesful approach is to get anything that kinda works in place fast and cheap, and sell the rest of what is really needed over time. I know this was the attitude at the last place I worked. Many folks solve this problem by consulting. Customers listen better and are more likely to appreciate good work. But some still want "the first thing that works, and solve the problems later." My strategy is to work around the edges, not delving into the cutthroat commodity work and staying away from the shrinkwrap. It's lonelier and at the moment not
profitable, but it is worth the bother when I can do it.
Every person has a perspective and every position is different. Some have all the aspects you describe. Some have none. I have determined that if I can't get paid for doing it the right way, I'll get an IS or electronics job. That's just the way I am. Each person must find their own way. Some just want a job, even just running other peoples software. Some like solving problems and the means are not important. Some aspire to change things for the better. Every one of them will see things differently. But all of them apparently, think it's worth the bother.

Regards

cww

 

I have a different view after having worked in an engineering capacity for many years. I loved developing motor models and algorithms which I would implement in assembly language on Motorola processors in VME systems. I enjoyed leading edge or emerging technologies such as PC based controls. Traveling to the field was an added bonus so I could see the results of my efforts. Then I saw the sales guys take credit for the job (as well as the money) so I got into the sales side of industrial automation.

So, spend your time in the trenches to hone your engineering skills. At the same time, learn the business you represent. If you can speak the
engineering lingo AND possess business acumen, the sun, the moon and the stars may line up for you too!

Kerry L. Schrank
Automation Specialist
TriStar (electronics, controls and automation)

 

Like they say in some places where they sell stuff I really like: If you have to enquire about the price, you can't afford it!

If you really have invested the time you say - and still have to ask - maybe you should go into sales or management, or maybe shoe repair.

Here are a few more items to turn you off: The heat at the end of a draw furnace will melt your computer - and you have to work there. The noise and flying debris around a debarker make it really hard to concentrate. When you go to work at a sulphur plant for a few weeks you car will devaluate (rust away), and your clothes smell like rotten eggs. Working near refineries and oil terminals you can die from gas or flames - suddenly. Working near sawmill machinery you can get delimbed or sucked in, sliced up. Working in
other companies engineering offices can drive you insane, just by the stuff you have to listen to.

Oh, and think of all the holidays that have to get bumped or cancelled because project schedules change.

After more than twenty years in this field I am as excited about tomorrows work as I was twenty years ago. Yeah, I get tired (it's now the sixth month that my overtime hours are more than the regular hours, and I have spent five of those month sleeping in hotel rooms).

But you know what makes me really tired? Having to work with people that are concerned about how they look, how much they are getting paid, how much I am getting paid, when it's time to go for coffee.

I get great enjoyment out of having a knowledgeable client tech go through my application and exclaim "nice touch" and "wow, you've made that easy". I get satisfaction out of operators looking through my system screens, smile at me and say "yup, I can operate that" (without any instructions). But you likely think that this is evidence of misplaced priority.

I just want to do good work, that I get paid for being allowed to play with some rather impressive equipment is just a bonus.

> > I ask, is it all worth the fun of setting up the system and finally seeing it work exactly as designed?> >

No, my aim is a bit higher. First I try for the best design possible, then I work my guts out to make it work better than that.

And another one: It's been a year since I've been able to get to work on my web site, just because of all this fun project work! Today we turned over three threethousand horsepower motors, talk about excitement.

Thanks for the opportunity to reflect on the great life this industry has provided for me, and as someone else has pointed out, the great people I've got to meet.

Hugo

 

I think the main issue here is "Who has the power here?"
All of your concerns assume that you, the poor engineer, is the helpless victim of the person
needing the job. Nothing could be further from the
truth. Think of yourself as a trained, certified professional (which you will be after a few years), very much like a surgeon. YOU have the power to say "NO!" - and then the person needing the job is really in a pickle.
See, you can pick and choose who to work for,
and unlike a Ph.D position, you have ample money
to educate yourself and enjoy life.
You just have to learn that you can push back!

 

> I am through with college which sort of qualified me for this type of job but if its characteristics are such as I heard & experienced:
>
> -stressfull- possibly long hours under pressure to get an industrial system up and running A.S.A.P., while every mistake might cause direct damage

What about doctors, airline pilots, etc., for direct damage? Your salary comes from a capacity to accept responsibility.

> -constant need to learn new stuff (hardware, bus, comm. standards etc.)- basically cool but might get tiresome with time

Nothing more tiresome than a person who remembers everything and has learned nothing.

> -possible long absence from home and family, depending on the job

Truckers, construction workers, military personnel?

> -possible unpleasant working conditions (smelly, cold, noisy...)

Go directly to the non-smoking section. Only eat macrobiotic food, etc. Come on, the higher pay goes with it. Part of your job is to remove the smell, reduce the noise, etc., for those who are going to put in 40 years in that plant.

> -having to dig or ask around about the technology of the process in question (By the way can anyone direct me please to a source covering polyethilene process production or a beer brewery technology in terms of usable process equations/model?.. )

Try the web, request annual reports, go to shows, read, read, read.

> -very little time or authorisation to really be creative-experiment with stuff like system identification, estimation, and advanced control techniques

Your knowledge of that is your competitive advantage.

> -IT or communication engineers probably top control people with their paychecks&benefits(?)
> (is it irresponsible to do what you like instead
> of what pays best once you start supporting your family?)

If you think you have a future in control without knowledge of networking, IT software (SAP, JDEdwards, etc.), and operating systems, you're only fooling yourself.

> I ask, is it all worth the fun of setting up the system and finally seeing it work exactly as designed?

Probably not, but it sure beats what's in second place.

After having ridden the waves of TTL, minicomputers, microprocessors, CP/M, MS-DOS, Arcnet, Windows,and now Ethernet and the web (with LINUX coming up), I hope I have time for at least two more circuits around the track.

 

(How does it work? Either "Fine" or "Not very well" is the answer.) They live in a completely magical world, and they like it that way.
> Michael R. Batchelor - Industrial Informatics, Inc.

Great point Mike. I like it when you ask 'them' a second time if they really know how it works and the response is still "Fine". (Magic wand in hand - here we go again)

 

I'm sure that question of a career choice is
understandable for a new graduate.
Maybe it would be instructive to reflect on
one things gave you the greatest please in your
past. Almost all of the engineers I've met and
admired said that they played with making models
as children. The more realistic the model, ie, can
it go, stop, turn, etc - the "keener" it was.
That's the sort of excitement that control
engineers have. Most people would rather just "buy" a solution and get on to other things
(what, I don't know).
Another clue is working with your hands - most
control engineers have enormous toolboxes, because
they appreciate how much better a GOOD tool helps.
You may be too young to have a big toolbox, but if
you enjoy fixing your car or woodworking or shop ...

 

Im sorry I cant agree with you, the situation for I&C engineers has become very shabby. There are many cowboys in the business (fanciful electricians, aging PC nerds for example) who have drifted into the discipline claiming dubious antecedents. I am retired from the oils business after 30+ years on the game and I am deeply saddened at the way the quality of work has been severely trashed. I would not advise any youngster to go into the craft. Its not that the work is uninteresting - far from it. Its just that you work is over stressed, under-resourced and ultimately devalued (despite its key technical importance). Im afraid you are not considered a Brain Surgeon more like a TV repairman (in spite of the considerable expertise you need for your tasks)

The worm has turned however. Very few young graduates are going through the system. Experienced I&C Engineers (I mean real ones) are as rare as hens teeth. I blame the Oil Major players for ruining the whole scheme of things. They thought they could squeeze more return on capital by dispensing with the services on Design consultants and letting the Concrete pourers handle the work (EPC contracts). Its like asking a jobbing builder to become an Architect.

So the idea that you can get on your high horse in front of Mr KA project manager and tell him "NO" is ludicrous. Try it some time and you will discover how many tons of pressure can be exerted by the "Team". I have witnessed some truly appaling scenarios, a conspired prostitution of engineering integrity for the sake of planning milestones (in which you had no influence at the outset nor subsequently). I have seen drawing packages approved for construction where all the "hold for vendor information" clouds had been erased. Subsequenlty during construction the scope of additional follow on work was lost as the temas demobilised and the construction I&C guys were left to reverse engineer the work the try and guess what was needed. A fiasco, simply becuase the contract was written by lawyers who said that drawings with clouds were incomplete and wouldnt receive payment. Think about that implication for safety shutdown systems for example.

Where I am in SE Asia I have turned down several offers from American Contractors because they want to hire a white face so they can blame him.

I could go on about the poor standard of engineering across the pond but my inet connection would timeout.

Keep the faith, but for keriste sake stop calling us Nerds and "techies" what an insult

 

TI:
> Subject: BUSN: why bother with industrial automation?
...

You get to play with cool stuff all day and they *pay* you for it. (Don't let the boss know, though.)

Jiri
--
Jiri Baum <[email protected]> http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jirib

 

I will like to add a universal law: Hapiness is doing what you love to do, and receive a paycheck for it. Another hit for the career, hear "it won't work". "None can make it run". After 30 minutes, or sometimes hours, the machine is running like hell, then you can return to your desk and email some friends telling them how you fixed the problem.

 

Hello
Imagine that you spent that time as a trader in stock market and you closed a deal that just made you a small fortune- would it make you happier if you called up your wife/girlfriend and told her to pack for a cruise to Hawaii?
The point is work should be for money and hobby for fun !? (at least Doctors and Lawyers feel that way)