Why do you pay for PLC programming software?

A
One thing is very clear. If you want to use software, you need to pay as its development comes at a huge cost. Also from Allan Bradely point, I feel its bad if they charge after a year any license fee. I will recommend you to use ABB or Siemens PLC where there is no license fee
 
I agree, I have NEVER heard of a developer with those credentials making $11.75/hr. No wonder he is looking for another job!!!
 
So this subject has got most of you riled up now for the past 3 years. Never would I have realized the passion on both sides of the fence. I am glad that many of you have come to realize that Industrial Software for Automation development has evolved into the commodity I predicted back then, and, an all be it uneven calm has ensued. The fact remains.... Programming Software is a tool just like any other tool that has to be purchased in order to do a job. The cost associated with such a job is relative. You pay $5 for a hammer to knock in a 10c nail. Conversely, you can pay $5k for a software tool that will make a multi-million dollar plant run. Typically the development of a PLC or Automation programming tool in todays environment costs between $1m and $15m and all vendors are looking for ROI. It is what it is.... The cost of doing business!

Lee J Ward
Rockwell Automation
 
Allen-Bradley (Rockwell) does what they want, and if you don't like it, go elsewhere! They are well paid for their marketing (and their products). The consumer CAN have the final say though.

Now that
-Westinghouse is only a name in a history book, -Square-D and Modicon are parts of Schneiders inventory,
-GE is the outfit that does jet-engines, locomotives, and labels on medical equipment
-Texas Instruments (who?) and ITE were outfits that were able to get some money out of Siemens,
Who's left in the USA?

It's simple competition.

AB users need to simply refuse to be railroaded. NAMM and other industrial associations need to quickly develop a VERY SIMPLE standard specification. One that demands backward-compatibility, modularity and/or scalability, and inclusion of programming software (and license) with each CPU. That's pretty simple.

If the puffin projects got some serious backing we'd see changes.

We also need some serious hacking of AB software. Maybe I just need to check WinMX or Gnutella or KaZzaA ...
 
Sorry Lee, but there is a big difference between a hammer that costs $5 and software that costs $1300+. And the hammer will work with any nail. Not just the ones made by the company that made the hammer.

I'm learning PLC programming in my off time, buying hardware off e-bay and companys that charge reasonable prices for thier hardware. Of course I'm not a company with a lot of mony to spend and its tough to get a good deal on the software.

Also, the company i work for is getting away from AB for new installations and using other brands when the old AB hardware needs to be replaced. This has everything to do with cost.

They'ere using Siemens, but I'm making some of the automation guys aware of Tealware and TOPDOC from the SoftPLC Corporation. The cost is 25% to 35% less than AB and this is quality stuff. It also runs on Windows AND linux so the programmer can work on his/her platform of choice.

AB produces quality products and thats what I'm learning with at home because of the install base. Perhaps Rockwell could open up some of those specs so the open source community could take a crack at some programming tools. That would be ideal for someone like me whos just learning and experimenting at home.

Thanks,

Mike
 
C
It's interesting, I heard all the same arguments from the people who sold million dollar computers to SMBs. And yes, it was probably worth it to get your payroll done between Fridays. But, no one would even think of paying millions for that anymore. Where are the minicomputer class guys for this market? They'll be along. Huge infrastructures were built and staffed and everyone thought that was what you had to have. All were swept away when commodity computing came along. And it's hard to even think of doing things the old way. This market is loaded with functionally identical products with redundant infrastructure and the only diversity is at the bottom. Who do you think stands the best chance of surviving? Once the bubble bursts in what smells like and walks like
a commodity market, the exodus will begin. All the same arguments could be used to justify selling PCs for 10 or 20 thousand dollars. But a cold comparison between PLCs and some $20 embedded controllers is not flattering to the big automation vendors. If solution providers could (would?) use either, I think the towers would collapse. It's already possible to do the same job with solutions that differ in cost by a ratio of 10 to 1. Reality has a way of flattening differences like that. Let's ponder how the high end can persist.

Regards

cww
 
Geez, I dont believe this post for a min. I mean a programmer is supposed to be smarter than that. If he got up to goto work as a programmer for $11.75/hr he got what he deserved.
 
You may want to have a look at the Horner PLC equipment. I have used lots of it (as well as lots of AB). It has more features than any of the others I have tried. Most models come with a built on display. This makes building applications very easy because the display software and programming software are the same package that use the same db.

The upper level models come with compact flash memory similar to the new compact logics except with the Horner you can:
1. Load programs to the controller
2. Save the programs to the flash from the controller
3. Save process data from the controller to the CF on .csv files that you can read with xl.

See http://www.heapg.com for more technical details.

The company is based in the USA.

The programming software for the controllers is free.

They pay for thier software development from hardware sales.

They also have a free 24/7 technical support hotline.

What do you think of these concepts? Refreshing isnt it?

Rod
 
M
There are alternatives. I personally can rewcommend the control micro systems Scada pack. The programming software is free. the technical support is very good. The unit uses industry standard modbus or dnp3 communications and by using available protocol converters you can talk to anything Alan Bradely has to offer. They also carry their own Scada software Clear scada which does a very good job of talking to their controllers.
 
Oh, you poor thing.....
To hard to learn something new ?? I worked with many different PLC's over the last 30 years, and you know what.... They're all basically the SAME.... Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure them out.

Wake up and try learning something !!
 
Limiting the amount of development by selling the software makes no sense for hardware sales. If you have 5 engineers and a company unwilling to buy more then one copy of the programing software. You only have 1 PLC sold at a time. If the software was paid for through hardware sales you have the potential for 5 PLCs sold at a time. A lot of companies have no problem buying hardware, but dislike buying software for some reason.
 
Seeing that no one has posted here in a while, I figured I would bash AB for a minute.

Consider the Drive Explorer Software for $365-$385 (not the freeware version that does nothing, I'm talking about the "full blown" version that does nothing).

Compare it to Unisoft etc. by Emerson CT, BTW Free. Compare it to ConfigEd+/Lite by Parker/SSD drives, BTW Free.

I once heard an engineer say Delta Tau Data Systems motion controllers are designed by scientists for scientists, that made me think about my friends, AB, designed by fools for fools.

Do the world a favor and go buy a real drive/motion system and leave the AB to rot. They will eventually drop motion just like they did the CNC market and the Vision market...what's next reliance?
 
I agree fully, with your remarks about having to pay for yearly subscriptions etc..

Unfortunately it is the case, companies have to have a return on their investments (which is typically in the hundreds of millions �) and therefore make yearly subscriptions etc.

However, normally the yearly subsciptions include updates (with Schneider) which i believe are very important. Those updates are not bug fixes they are for the most recent versions.

I am unsure about Allen Bradley but im sure it should be the same way, if not i would consider moving to another supplier.
 
As a small user of PLCs, the price of the software drives me nuts. Sales reps come around touting new hardware and its benefits. They give a price which looks quite inviting. Then once you've decided that it is something you are interested in, they drop the bomb. Sure I'd like to use the hardware, but I can't because I can't program it without the gazillion dollar software package. If I was using several of the same type of PLC in a plant, it would be quite easy to buy it. But, as a one off for a small company, it doesn't happen. The contracting company quite often decides what PLC it wants and I have to program it. I can't invest in every programming package a customer wants. If I add it to the price, the customer shops somewhere else, quite often at a vendor specific company that can spread the price over a larger number of installations. If any PLC company wants me to use their hardware, they should at least make it cost effective for me. Provide a basic programming package. If they want to have a multiplatform package for a premium that contains extensive support so be it, but they should at least allow smaller purchasers to at least access the features of the hardware they purchase. If giving the software away means adding to the price of the hardware, then so be it. I don't want to spend $1500 to program a $2000 PLC. I know programming costs $ but why should my small purchase have to support developement to keep the prices down for the larger corporations that have loads of PLCs installed. Then to top it off, I quite often have to buy a programming package to support an older PLC for which a programming package has already been purchased. The program is quite often on 3-1/2" floppy and can't run in todays Window environments or has become corrupted over time, and guess what, no support any more. "I'm sorry, you need our new xyz programm for $10000000000000000." I'd like to see a company step into the marketplace and do it right. If they offered their softwarw free with the hardware, they would blow the competition away for a few years until everyone caught on that it actually does work to operate this way.

Comparing the PLC programming to PC operating systems isn't the same either. I have the option to put any operating system on my computer that I want. I can use Linux or several others which are free, or I may purchase Windows or others which have a cost attached. I do have a choice. On a PLC, there is no choice. I have to pay the price for the software from the vendor that supplied the hardware or I can't use it.
 
Wow. I'll try to restrain myself since you are new to PLCs, but you completely don't understand AB (RA) at all. Every group at RA is a profit center. That includes the software group as well as support. Even the local "Drive Center" which is suppose to be there to help, but ends up just trying to steal you customers (from us integrators anyway), because they need to show a profit too.

Let me make this as clear as I know how. RA/AB does not want you to buy anything but RA/AB stuff. Case in point, they took a world-wide open protocol, SERCOS, and "closed it" to just work with their servo drives.

If you ever come across anything open-source for AB, it won't be from AB.

As for software $, I'm more in the middle. It does seem over priced, but one has to realize the effort it takes to write, test, and improve such applications. Also keep in mind the liability of producing "safe" software. If your email program crashes you don't break a machine or worse, hurt somebody. I know AB has considerable QC procedures.

I've never used A-D, so how's the built-in diagnostics in the programming software? The millisecond-update trending in RSLogix5000 is the best troubleshooting tool I've ever seen. Not that RSLogix5k is perfect by any standard, but the trending alone can be worth the $5k pricetag.
 
M
Yes software is expensive, and yes once you select your flavor you are basicly locked into the system due to capitol investment costs. Changing a system to another is not a value added or money returning investment. It is only an essential reliablity investment in the worst cases.

The best thing going for PLCs is the wide body of knowledge in support. There are integrators in almost every city who develop in ladder, function blocks, and SFCs. Bottom line, Ladder is efficient for the technician to work in and understand just like an electrical schematic.

Look at PLC 5 1771 I/O, It's still available and has been since the 80s. SLC 500 since the 90s, try and find a 286 passive backplane CPU today. (Remember when the programmer would count clock cycles to build his timing, and never provide C code for that boat anchor sitting in your warehouse?)

Today you could retrofit a junky old PC based dinosour with a sercos card, a kinetix drive, and a few lines of ladder. We are talking coordinated motion easily from a PLC. Nice stuff comes with some cost, let's face it, none of us work for free, and if they wanted me to, then I'd go broke at home and let their machines gather rust.

Yes it costs a lot for hardware, but have you checked the price of tooling? 100 dollars worth of metal can cost 1500 after being machined on a CNC. Just remember everything is worth what the market will bear, and if machinery purchases become cost prohibitive due to cost of hardware then people won't buy. That would drop the cost over time, or they would go out of buisness, which would allow you to justify change out on obsolescence costs... Just my 2 cents.

Mike Roberson
Manager/Controls Engineer/Maunfacturing and operations whipping boy/ *insert derogatory comment here*
 
I did a small project that required several small PLCs. 32 I/O x 5. I looked around and found this.

Mitsubishi gave me their DOS based software for free. The small brick PLC cost me 450 USD ea for 32 I/O. The cable was 120 USD.

The AB software was 1500 USD and the cable was 150 USD and the PLCs were 1250 USD ea!!!

So I used Mitsubishi. Finished the project and delivered it. Wish I could have used a Linux PC to write the code.

Then the customer says it has to be AB hardware and software at their plant!!

So I said good luck with that. I'll redo it if you want to pay for both ...AND THEY DID!!

So I have 5 cool little PLCs at home! With software and supporting hardware. I even reordered all new cabinets and relays and din rails and
power supplies and kept all the old stuff!

So you see, the big Co. just can't see the point.

I have heard about an open source project that programs several PLCs from one GUI and downloads and uploads to several different hardware types. If it was ever true I bet AB squashed it like a bug.

Make a quality product at a reasonable price and I'll pay it and be happy.

I have only bought one copy of windows, and I regret that.

If you want me to buy it, it has to work and be reasonable.
 
All the automation companies invest a lot in R&D of softwares. How do we get them back?

There are man hours spent for generating the Software for every project. Company pays salary for them. How do we get them back?

When an automation project is Proposed, the software engineering cost is very much considered in the budget. And the same is projected to the customer.
So no shock when you are claimed for the software services, ok!!
 
PLC Editing Software- you generally get what you pay for. Control Logix has the ability to manage large projects effectivly. We just did a job with about 25 PLC ( Logix 555 )in one area, networked to 2 PLCs in a second are area, with 6 more Logix in a third area. All are attached via ethernet to a DCS. And we can dril down into any of them via RS Logix5000 from anywhere. Also the diagrams, tagnames i/o card info and status are all available online. and you can do online changes etc.

Most of the cheaper PLCs just can't do that with their software. so don't even try.

Do you want to read the health of i/o cards? Logix can do that, so can many DCS platforms.
But most cheaper PLCs do not support that information. I can charge people $75 an hour to troubleshoot cards in the field, or they can log in over Logix and see what is happening directly.

Lee Ward is right, if management has a $ 5 million process they do not mind spending $ 20K for software to do the job right. After all the President of Ford Motor Company just got paid $ 28 million for 8 months work, and Ford is going broke right now and laying of tons of people. Yet he is rewarded . So clearly companies do not care about $ 20K for PLC software. They deal in millions of $$ . I have installed dozens of cheap plcs and they work very nicely, after your fight with them a bit. Analog inputs seem to be the most problematic.

But- Essentially you get what you pay for.
 
D
This topic seams to drag on for years on our list... as well as the open debate.

Bottom line is I agree with this post... as someone put it on the list about PLC programming, chopsticks or Chopan (spell) both are piano playing. Same thing with PLCs, in order to have all the cool features of ControlLogix requires a huge outlay in support and R&D. You get what you pay for, it costs money to run huge development facilities and support places. I have done work with RA all the way back to AB days and ICOM before AB actually knew how to make their own software. The only way to support enhancements and updates and improvements... i.e. UDTs, User function blocks, 1163-3 support, etc. And anyone who has had RSLogix 5k since V1 knows how many IMPROVEMENTS have been made.

If you have ever been to Milwaukee or Cleveland and seen usability labs and their software facilities and the people working to make things better, you start to understand the costs. Open PLCs in my humble opinion will not make it for a long, long time as there is a big difference between PC users wanting free open source stuff and Engineers who, as this poster said, do not care what the software costs. It is a cost of doing business... and it is about 1/10th of the DCS world. Maybe we need to start OpenDCS first as that is where bigger costs are.

Bottom line is it costs money to make things safe and to support features, I get a little nervouse about running say an ethanol plant with "cheap" PLCs to save a buck.

My humble farm kid opinion...

PS: Lots of chopsticks players and PLCs out
there...

Dave
 
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