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PID Tuning Without a Plant Model on a Slow System
That is because the OP is using ITAE incorrectly. Most people do. Look at my video and the link to where Matlab calculated the ITAE coefficients. Matlab's numbers are closed to mine within a round off error. The ITAE should never be used to calculate the controller gains directly. Instead...
pnachtwey
Post #8
Jul 30, 2022
Forum:
Process Control
PID Tuning Without a Plant Model on a Slow System
Yes, it will avoid overshoot the response will still be sluggish and because temperature systems are non-integrating systems, the temperature will never reach the set point. The cascaded loop solution is MUCH better as mentioned above is MUCH better. Dead times will still be problem but one...
pnachtwey
Post #6
Jul 30, 2022
Forum:
Process Control
PID Tuning Without a Plant Model on a Slow System
Lots of fun! Where did you get the ITAE Controller Parameters for PID? I have never seen formulas like those before. There is a good chance that whomever derived them did it wrong. I notice you got some info from Matlab. ITAE is used to find the where the closed loop pole locations should be...
pnachtwey
Post #2
Jul 27, 2022
Forum:
Process Control
Is there a method that can be used for very large number of operating points to design PID controller ?
@relaxc, your video doesn't address the OP's problem. I am aware of LQR. I have a YouTube video about it. However, my original video is showing real applications where gain scheduling provides almost perfect control and how most people can get excellent control easily with little training...
pnachtwey
Post #9
Jul 11, 2022
Forum:
Electrical Engineering
Is there a method that can be used for very large number of operating points to design PID controller ?
OK, just for you. I have posted a link to a video that shows how we do it. It isn't done yet We tune the swing arm at 3 or 4 different places and note the gains and the relationship between the angle and the linear extension of the hydraulic cylinder. In our example the angle is the same as...
pnachtwey
Post #7
Jul 8, 2022
Forum:
Electrical Engineering
Is there a method that can be used for very large number of operating points to design PID controller ?
It appears you already have a handle on the problem. What determines the operating point? What changes and does the controller "know" when and how the operating point changes? It may be possible to make a function that changes the tuning as a function of the operating point so this can be...
pnachtwey
Post #5
Jul 8, 2022
Forum:
Electrical Engineering
Measurement and controller sampling time for speed control
Who's rule? Where do you see such rules? if you have a separate feedback for velocity and position then you might try a cascaded loop but usually there is only a position feedback for position. 1 millisecond loop times is OK for position and velocity. However if you are doing testing and...
pnachtwey
Post #4
Jun 9, 2022
Forum:
General Automation Chat
Measurement and controller sampling time for speed control
The sampling time for a Kalman filter is usually the same as for your closed loop control. I/we don't use Kalman filters for motion control because Kalman filters rely on knowing the process and measurement noise. Fat chance our customers would know that. We use Luenberger observers. The K...
pnachtwey
Post #2
Jun 8, 2022
Forum:
General Automation Chat
Derivative Filter in velocity-form PID algorithm?
I don't understand. The gains of the Kalman filter require knowing the values of the process noise and the measurement noise to find a ratio the effective weights, K gains, between the two. Were you select the band width? An Alpha Beta Gamma filter computes the gain by choosing a frequency...
pnachtwey
Post #11
Jun 8, 2022
Forum:
General Automation Chat
Siemens implementation of PI control.
Don't ignore what I said above about there being two times in the denominator. How does a ( 1 + 1/(TI*t) ) make sense? The first 1 is unit less. The second 1/(TI*t) has units of 1/seconds^2. How can these be added together? What cancels out the 1/seconds^2 units? There must be a misprint...
pnachtwey
Post #4
Jun 3, 2022
Forum:
Programmable Logic Controller - PLC
Siemens implementation of PI control.
That equation looks wrong. Assuming Ti is the integrator time constant and t is the update interval, the units are not right because there are two times in the denominator. Also, I don't see where the output is being integrated.
pnachtwey
Post #2
Jun 1, 2022
Forum:
Programmable Logic Controller - PLC
Derivative Filter in velocity-form PID algorithm?
I don't think much of fuzzy logic. It is an attempt to control a system without knowing anything about it and the results are at best, FUZZY. This video will give you an idea of what I really think about FL Most people that push FL don't know anything about system identification and pole...
pnachtwey
Post #9
May 31, 2022
Forum:
General Automation Chat
Finding Kp, Ki, and Kd Values from Bump Test
The bump test is crude but it works if you excite the system enough. What isn't clear is what kind of system are you trying to tune? It makes a HUGE difference. The equation you post above for PI works well for a FOPDT system. I agree with the formula. However, everything changes when tuning...
pnachtwey
Post #4
May 28, 2022
Forum:
Process Control
Derivative Filter in velocity-form PID algorithm?
I agree. In your previous post, if e_f(k) is done properly, the result should be the same as mine. One way to test is using a simulation like I did. What people don't realize is that much of the "noise" you are trying to filter out is due to quantizing due to coarse feed back resolution...
pnachtwey
Post #7
May 26, 2022
Forum:
General Automation Chat
Derivative Filter in velocity-form PID algorithm?
I made a YouTube video that covers what must be done to add a low pass filter to an incremental ( velocity ) form of PID here.
pnachtwey
Post #4
May 25, 2022
Forum:
General Automation Chat
Derivative Filter in velocity-form PID algorithm?
I am not home or at work at the moment so I can't give you the exact answer but if I give you glues you may be able to figure it out by yourself. First. The form of the PID will be that of a digital filter like "y(n)=A1*y(n-1)+A2*y(n-2)+B0*x+B1*x(n-1)+B2*x(n-2)" What is wrong with this site...
pnachtwey
Post #2
May 23, 2022
Forum:
General Automation Chat
PID Controller for Hydraulic Proportional Relief Valves
Much depends on what is being controlled. Controlling the pressure of small volume of oil is much harder than controlling the pressure of a large volume of oil because the same amount of oil change will affect the pressure much more in a small volume. There are many PLCs that can close the...
pnachtwey
Post #4
Apr 18, 2022
Forum:
Instrumentation & Measurement
Smarter temperature controller?
What you are suggesting are kludges.. Your are too focused on the PID and not the process! How high? What is happening when the machine is running? If the machine is heating up widgets then it will obviously take more heat if the flow of widget through you machine/furnace is faster. When the...
pnachtwey
Post #2
Jan 2, 2022
Forum:
Programmable Logic Controller - PLC
Control System accuracy
Really? Do you really think 100ms or even 10ms updates is fast enough? It might be depending on this application but I know of many applications where it isn't. I think understanding the problem is most important. Then you can pick a control method. So all systems are created equal? Just...
pnachtwey
Post #5
Dec 10, 2021
Forum:
General Automation Chat
Control System accuracy
Are you suggesting using a temperature controller on a pump flow application? That would be interesting to see. What the OP needs to know is how his system works and he has provided us with little information about the pump and piping. There is a system curve and a pump curve. The...
pnachtwey
Post #3
Dec 10, 2021
Forum:
General Automation Chat
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