K
Ken Emmons Jr.
OK, the geek in me is wondering where you get $8.50 QTY 3 boards with solder mask and silk screen. This could change the game on hobby projects or low cost prototypes.
KEJR
KEJR
C
curt wuollet
Hi Ken
That's from: http://dorkbotpdx.org/wiki/pcb_order.
2 layer board, lead free $5/sq.in. You get 3 boards, sometimes more if they use it to fill out a panel. The 4 slot backplane was 5.31 sq.in. so it came to $26.54 for 3 or $8.84 per board (sorry, did the math in my head before coffee) And they are routed and you can do any reasonable shape as long as you pay for the enveloping rectangle. I'll put up a pic if someone will host it. I used PCB because there isn't much point in doing Open Hardware if you need Orcad or other costly or closed software to work with it. I tried Kicad, but the chips I need weren't in the library and I don't like autorouted layouts for these industrial boards anyway. I have no connection with dorkbotpdx other than as a happy customer. But yes, their batching, plus the shrink to 4 slots for the prototype, made this feasible with no development funds.
No such luck for the IO cards, they are 2.5x3.5 with the size driven by the need for connectors. $43.75 for 3 which is still very reasonable IFF you have the cash.
One interesting part, is that they have a 4 layer service, so I could take one of the existing Open Hardware ARM designs, drop it on the end and have an extremely powerful, full blown PAC if I had a budget of a few hundred. As I've said before, PLCs aren't very magical.
Regards
cww
That's from: http://dorkbotpdx.org/wiki/pcb_order.
2 layer board, lead free $5/sq.in. You get 3 boards, sometimes more if they use it to fill out a panel. The 4 slot backplane was 5.31 sq.in. so it came to $26.54 for 3 or $8.84 per board (sorry, did the math in my head before coffee) And they are routed and you can do any reasonable shape as long as you pay for the enveloping rectangle. I'll put up a pic if someone will host it. I used PCB because there isn't much point in doing Open Hardware if you need Orcad or other costly or closed software to work with it. I tried Kicad, but the chips I need weren't in the library and I don't like autorouted layouts for these industrial boards anyway. I have no connection with dorkbotpdx other than as a happy customer. But yes, their batching, plus the shrink to 4 slots for the prototype, made this feasible with no development funds.
No such luck for the IO cards, they are 2.5x3.5 with the size driven by the need for connectors. $43.75 for 3 which is still very reasonable IFF you have the cash.
One interesting part, is that they have a 4 layer service, so I could take one of the existing Open Hardware ARM designs, drop it on the end and have an extremely powerful, full blown PAC if I had a budget of a few hundred. As I've said before, PLCs aren't very magical.
Regards
cww
C
curt wuollet
Update:
I got a pink slip from the postman today that says I need to go to the Post Office Monday to pick up my package from Hongkong. I was registered and I don't know why he didn't leave it, Perhaps he didn't want to disturb Cheeto who was sleeping on the steps. Anyways, that should be the terminals, and it increases the pressure to send the IO cards to fab. Got a great deal on optoisolators, and about all I have yet to order are a few hundred resistors. I have the values set, but I want to see how the optoisolators work at corner conditions before I finalize. I've been looking at processors that will run Linux at minimal cost and came across an ARM11 design that they hope to sell for $25 running Ubuntu with browser Python, etc.
http://www.crunchgear.com/2011/05/05/raspberry-pi-a-25-bare-bones-pc-that-fits-on-your-keychain/
This sort of thing makes you wonder if the X86 empire's days are numbered. The whole ARM story is a great example of how sharing IP costs makes much more sense that everyone rolling their own. I'm sure Intel and AMD, etal are watching with more than casual interest as their lunch is being eaten. Anyways, if it happens, It will let me hit a much more than competitive price point with a full blown PLC/PAC running a full featured Linux OS. And I have a tickle from a company that might like to hire me to do this sort of thing. I made a minor infraction on my own design rules. I see a potential problem with the output cards. The MCP23S17 power up default is for all pins to be inputs. Depending on which way the leakage flows, that could at least partially turn on the output buffers until you tell the chip they're outputs. So I added pulldown resistors to ensure that the buffer inputs are definitely held low when the 23S17 powers up. I was short on space so I added these in the form of resistor arrays. They are still through hole parts, and stocked at Newark, etc., but they are not available at your local Radio Shack. If needed you can fake it with 8 resistors in a pinch. They may not be needed, but the footprint is there.
Regards
cww
I got a pink slip from the postman today that says I need to go to the Post Office Monday to pick up my package from Hongkong. I was registered and I don't know why he didn't leave it, Perhaps he didn't want to disturb Cheeto who was sleeping on the steps. Anyways, that should be the terminals, and it increases the pressure to send the IO cards to fab. Got a great deal on optoisolators, and about all I have yet to order are a few hundred resistors. I have the values set, but I want to see how the optoisolators work at corner conditions before I finalize. I've been looking at processors that will run Linux at minimal cost and came across an ARM11 design that they hope to sell for $25 running Ubuntu with browser Python, etc.
http://www.crunchgear.com/2011/05/05/raspberry-pi-a-25-bare-bones-pc-that-fits-on-your-keychain/
This sort of thing makes you wonder if the X86 empire's days are numbered. The whole ARM story is a great example of how sharing IP costs makes much more sense that everyone rolling their own. I'm sure Intel and AMD, etal are watching with more than casual interest as their lunch is being eaten. Anyways, if it happens, It will let me hit a much more than competitive price point with a full blown PLC/PAC running a full featured Linux OS. And I have a tickle from a company that might like to hire me to do this sort of thing. I made a minor infraction on my own design rules. I see a potential problem with the output cards. The MCP23S17 power up default is for all pins to be inputs. Depending on which way the leakage flows, that could at least partially turn on the output buffers until you tell the chip they're outputs. So I added pulldown resistors to ensure that the buffer inputs are definitely held low when the 23S17 powers up. I was short on space so I added these in the form of resistor arrays. They are still through hole parts, and stocked at Newark, etc., but they are not available at your local Radio Shack. If needed you can fake it with 8 resistors in a pinch. They may not be needed, but the footprint is there.
Regards
cww
C
curt wuollet
Update:
I just sent the isolated input card and the sourcing output card artwork to fab. May require a diet of Ramen Noodles if nothing comes up, but I'll have something to distract me. I don't know if they'll get in tomorrows batch or not.
Regards
cww
I just sent the isolated input card and the sourcing output card artwork to fab. May require a diet of Ramen Noodles if nothing comes up, but I'll have something to distract me. I don't know if they'll get in tomorrows batch or not.
Regards
cww
W
William Sturm
Curt,
You might find this product interesting, it seems very close to your plans...
http://cubloc.com/product/08_01.php
You might find this product interesting, it seems very close to your plans...
http://cubloc.com/product/08_01.php
C
curt wuollet
Yes, it does. I'll bet they use an AVR32 RISC (ARM) processor and either an SPI or I2C backplane. Like I've mentioned, PLCs are not Rocket Science. And it looks like they have licensed AVR studio as their IDE. Except for the fact that you're all witnesses to prior art, it's kinda like the closed evil twin:^). And it looks like they have had the advantage of money for plastic. And it's not horribly expensive as far as PLCs go. I predict they'll come up with a much faster processor module that will run an OS, probably WINCE. This is because not many automation types want to develop in C on the bare metal, it's much more fun with an OS, some more than others:^) After all, all I am doing is instantiating a microcontroller with OTS peripheral chips with an industrial interface to the world. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see more existing or popping up. I've known dozens of people who could do this and all the pieces are OTS and techniques described in Atmel and MicroChip literature.
Their other product line looks like an Arduino in shrinkwrap clothing. 8 bit Atmel Risc processor sounds a lot like an ATMega328 or family:^)
You have to keep your eye on the ultimate goal, an Open PLC that _you_ can completely understand, build, fix, enhance, and own, to do what _you_ please, with the software of _your_ choice, in my case Linux, and/or the many OSS automation projects around. And you can make a new type of card if you want. It's fairly easy. I'll give you the artwork template. If theirs met that goal, (and was a little cheaper) I'd be done. I'm doing this because I _will_ achieve that goal and because I can. It's not a plan, the hardware made it into fab today. Just as with MAT/PLC, there will be an Open hardware option. And just as with MAT/PLC, it doesn't have to be _my_ vision, I'm only insuring there will be one. If this time next year I can pick from a dozen, that's fine. But having nothing but proprietary hardware with proprietary software, none of which is Linux based, is a problem I can fix. And I've got the time :^) I don't have to make money with this, if I sell a few board blanks or kits or ? to recover my $400 R&D hardware costs, that's fine, even if I don't, I have a 64 point Linux PLC at less cost than a slot PLC from the majors and I don't have to buy software. And the next one will be a lot cheaper. That MPC algorithm we've been discussing would be a lot more fun to write on an ARM with gcc over Linux.
Regards
cww
Their other product line looks like an Arduino in shrinkwrap clothing. 8 bit Atmel Risc processor sounds a lot like an ATMega328 or family:^)
You have to keep your eye on the ultimate goal, an Open PLC that _you_ can completely understand, build, fix, enhance, and own, to do what _you_ please, with the software of _your_ choice, in my case Linux, and/or the many OSS automation projects around. And you can make a new type of card if you want. It's fairly easy. I'll give you the artwork template. If theirs met that goal, (and was a little cheaper) I'd be done. I'm doing this because I _will_ achieve that goal and because I can. It's not a plan, the hardware made it into fab today. Just as with MAT/PLC, there will be an Open hardware option. And just as with MAT/PLC, it doesn't have to be _my_ vision, I'm only insuring there will be one. If this time next year I can pick from a dozen, that's fine. But having nothing but proprietary hardware with proprietary software, none of which is Linux based, is a problem I can fix. And I've got the time :^) I don't have to make money with this, if I sell a few board blanks or kits or ? to recover my $400 R&D hardware costs, that's fine, even if I don't, I have a 64 point Linux PLC at less cost than a slot PLC from the majors and I don't have to buy software. And the next one will be a lot cheaper. That MPC algorithm we've been discussing would be a lot more fun to write on an ARM with gcc over Linux.
Regards
cww
C
curt wuollet
Well, the wait is over, I have 3 input boards and 3 output boards ready to be populated. I really need the distraction due to personal grief. Of course, when they arrived, I did the anxiety ridden first inspection to see if everything fits and if there are any obvious faults that would turn them into attractive, if expensive, coasters. No board problems noted yet. While the backplane came with blue soldermask and gold plating, this batch came with purple soldermask and gold plating.
Workmanship looks excellent. There is a problem with the connectors though. Unlike every other terminal of that type I've ever seen, these don't stack end to end. So I have to come up with connectors that do. That's a minor problem if the cards are all right. Now I have to start populating them. With the input cards using 48 resistors each, I'm going to have to set up a production type soldering station. Through hole design does have it's drawbacks, but I don't think placing and keeping 48 chip resistors and various other components in place to paste solder them would be a picnic either. One bump and it's back to square 1. On a marginally related note, I interviewed with a company that does all their electronics and software in house with embedded Linux. I suppose then I'd have to do something else in my off time:^) That would be a great problem to have.
Regards
cww
Workmanship looks excellent. There is a problem with the connectors though. Unlike every other terminal of that type I've ever seen, these don't stack end to end. So I have to come up with connectors that do. That's a minor problem if the cards are all right. Now I have to start populating them. With the input cards using 48 resistors each, I'm going to have to set up a production type soldering station. Through hole design does have it's drawbacks, but I don't think placing and keeping 48 chip resistors and various other components in place to paste solder them would be a picnic either. One bump and it's back to square 1. On a marginally related note, I interviewed with a company that does all their electronics and software in house with embedded Linux. I suppose then I'd have to do something else in my off time:^) That would be a great problem to have.
Regards
cww
S
Steinhoff
> Well, the wait is over, I have 3 input boards and 3 output boards
---- snip ----
> On a marginally related note, I interviewed with a company that does all their electronics and software in house with embedded Linux. I suppose then I'd have to do something else in my off time:^) That would be a great problem to have. <
What ever you are trying to build ... it will be more expensive than a cheap tablet PC running Android
The prices for these tablets (5"-7") are less than $100 ... it provides professional HMI, a Java SDK, a native SDK (C/C++) and battery buffered operation. What you need additionally are Bluetooth, USB or WLAN based external I/O modules ...
Just my 2 cents
--Armin
---- snip ----
> On a marginally related note, I interviewed with a company that does all their electronics and software in house with embedded Linux. I suppose then I'd have to do something else in my off time:^) That would be a great problem to have. <
What ever you are trying to build ... it will be more expensive than a cheap tablet PC running Android
The prices for these tablets (5"-7") are less than $100 ... it provides professional HMI, a Java SDK, a native SDK (C/C++) and battery buffered operation. What you need additionally are Bluetooth, USB or WLAN based external I/O modules ...
Just my 2 cents
--Armin
C
curt wuollet
Exactly my point, Armin!
The Linux part of the Linux PAC is no longer an issue. You can't swing a dead cat without knocking over something running Linux/Android. There is no particular reason for me to expend energy on processors/SBCs. So why, with this wonderful abundance, (which I predicted, by the way:^)) are we still doing automation with either primitive PLCs, and I use primitive in a good way, I like PLCs, or with PC's running the worst possible choice for automation? The other half is strangely missing, or 5 times the price of a powerful Linux SBC. My project is to add the things we are all used to for automation purposes, industrial standard I/O, that can be utilized with nearly any SBC or microcontroller. Inexpensive I/O, bulk I/O, for anything from a $17 Freeduino, or $30 Coridium ARM7 ARMite PRO, up to anything new for the life of the equipment. And today, as you say, you can get a lot of capability for $100.
This is local I/O, for machines and standalone systems. But, it's not rocket science to drop in an ethernet enabled processor and run OSS ModbusTCP and make a flexible remote IO rack. The same applies for any Open protocol. And if it inspires one of the SBC houses to put an SBC and a backplane on the same board and create an inexpensive Linux PAC, I might be the first in line to buy one. But, this project means there _will_ be at least one, and it could be useful to others facing the IO problem. It's merely instantiating the obvious. The synergy between Linux/Android, cheap, powerful ARM platforms and automation is obvious, I'm just speeding things up a bit. All the pieces are now there for Linux automation. I don't think we will see PACs as cheap as cell phones, but it's not out of the question and not a technical problem. Just get rid of the big, ugly, expensive, and inappropriate parts of the system:^)
Regards
cww
The Linux part of the Linux PAC is no longer an issue. You can't swing a dead cat without knocking over something running Linux/Android. There is no particular reason for me to expend energy on processors/SBCs. So why, with this wonderful abundance, (which I predicted, by the way:^)) are we still doing automation with either primitive PLCs, and I use primitive in a good way, I like PLCs, or with PC's running the worst possible choice for automation? The other half is strangely missing, or 5 times the price of a powerful Linux SBC. My project is to add the things we are all used to for automation purposes, industrial standard I/O, that can be utilized with nearly any SBC or microcontroller. Inexpensive I/O, bulk I/O, for anything from a $17 Freeduino, or $30 Coridium ARM7 ARMite PRO, up to anything new for the life of the equipment. And today, as you say, you can get a lot of capability for $100.
This is local I/O, for machines and standalone systems. But, it's not rocket science to drop in an ethernet enabled processor and run OSS ModbusTCP and make a flexible remote IO rack. The same applies for any Open protocol. And if it inspires one of the SBC houses to put an SBC and a backplane on the same board and create an inexpensive Linux PAC, I might be the first in line to buy one. But, this project means there _will_ be at least one, and it could be useful to others facing the IO problem. It's merely instantiating the obvious. The synergy between Linux/Android, cheap, powerful ARM platforms and automation is obvious, I'm just speeding things up a bit. All the pieces are now there for Linux automation. I don't think we will see PACs as cheap as cell phones, but it's not out of the question and not a technical problem. Just get rid of the big, ugly, expensive, and inappropriate parts of the system:^)
Regards
cww
C
curt wuollet
I thought I should drop a line as many changes are happening and I don't know how they will affect the project. My wife passed away just after Mother's day and I have been a bit lost, but trying to remain busy. I am now considering an offer to do Linux Control Program development full time in a location 100+ miles away, if I can overcome the logistics issues. This would complicate things for a while, but we'll see. I am waiting on a power supply and a few chips that got misplaced somehow, but hope to make progress before chaos prevails.
More when I decide.....
Regards
cww
More when I decide.....
Regards
cww
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William Sturm
Curt,
I am very sorry to hear of your wife's passing, I hope you are doing OK. I'm glad that you can keep up the good work on your project. Maybe the job opportunity will fall into place for you also, that would be good.
I have been interested in the Arduino lately for some testing equipment. I'm sure that you are aware of them as well.
Bill Sturm
I am very sorry to hear of your wife's passing, I hope you are doing OK. I'm glad that you can keep up the good work on your project. Maybe the job opportunity will fall into place for you also, that would be good.
I have been interested in the Arduino lately for some testing equipment. I'm sure that you are aware of them as well.
Bill Sturm
S
Steve Myres
So sorry to hear about your wife, Curt.
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curt wuollet
Thanks Bill
Yes, A Freeduino is my test engine for the I/O setup. A lot of capability for $17. But, rather than gape in awe, we must adapt as cabinets are replaced with boards and boards replaced with chips and chips replaced with cells in bigger chips at a frantic and unrelenting pace. We are excused only because the real world can't be virtualized beyond a certain point. It's a good thing people are still needed to work at that junction. It's interesting to ponder where software can advance. We use different tools but the tasks remain the same.
No sign of the stuff I ordered, a good day to pause and reflect on many fronts.
Regards
cww
Yes, A Freeduino is my test engine for the I/O setup. A lot of capability for $17. But, rather than gape in awe, we must adapt as cabinets are replaced with boards and boards replaced with chips and chips replaced with cells in bigger chips at a frantic and unrelenting pace. We are excused only because the real world can't be virtualized beyond a certain point. It's a good thing people are still needed to work at that junction. It's interesting to ponder where software can advance. We use different tools but the tasks remain the same.
No sign of the stuff I ordered, a good day to pause and reflect on many fronts.
Regards
cww
C
curt wuollet
Thank you, Steve.
Regards
cww
Regards
cww
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Walt Boyes
My condolences, Curt. My own wife passed away two years ago this coming July 29...and I am still more than a little bit lost. Please be good to yourself, too.
Best,
Walt
Walt Boyes
Editor in Chief
Control and ControlGlobal.com
555 W. Pierce Rd Suite 301
Itasca, IL 60143
[email protected]
www.controlglobal.com
630-467-1300
Best,
Walt
Walt Boyes
Editor in Chief
Control and ControlGlobal.com
555 W. Pierce Rd Suite 301
Itasca, IL 60143
[email protected]
www.controlglobal.com
630-467-1300
C
curt wuollet
The chaos is about to begin. I've accepted the offer to be a Control Software Developer for NovaTech in Willmar, MN. I'll post project news as the parts come in. I hope I can have a demo before I relocate, but if not, it's portable.
Regards
cww
Regards
cww
D
Dave Ferguson
Curt:
Although we have had our battles over what and how some things are going in Automation over the years, I sincerely want to offer my condolences on losing your wife. I hope you can hopefully get a new start in Wilmar and wish you all the best, and hope this fresh start can bring you some "distraction", I can only imagine what your have been going through.
Dave Ferguson
Although we have had our battles over what and how some things are going in Automation over the years, I sincerely want to offer my condolences on losing your wife. I hope you can hopefully get a new start in Wilmar and wish you all the best, and hope this fresh start can bring you some "distraction", I can only imagine what your have been going through.
Dave Ferguson
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William Sturm
Curt, congratulations on the new job.
Bill Sturm
Bill Sturm
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curt wuollet
Thank you Walt,
Everything is different somehow, but some things should get better soon. The rest........
Regards
cww
Everything is different somehow, but some things should get better soon. The rest........
Regards
cww
C
curt wuollet
Thank you, Dave.
It seems somewhat a Pyrrhic victory to be moving on to Linux automation at the moment, but I'm sure of the decision and things will hopefully get better. And though we differ, it's nothing personal, just a difference in perspective.
Regards
cww
It seems somewhat a Pyrrhic victory to be moving on to Linux automation at the moment, but I'm sure of the decision and things will hopefully get better. And though we differ, it's nothing personal, just a difference in perspective.
Regards
cww
