I Have a Question for 7FB Gas turbine machines

We have a TFIRE Factor

It's maybe ARES[6] Array.

but we don't know how can be caculated for TFIRE?

I guess its' related with ARES Arrays like CPDABS, CTD, TTXM, DWATT, CTIM

Is there anyone have a information about TFIRE Factor

 

You seem to be confusing FSRT and Tfire. They are--or were, before ARES--different signals.

FSRT is the FSR (Fuel Stroke Reference--the fuel flow setpoint, basically) for CPD (or CPR-biased) exhaust temperature control ("Base Load").

FSRT is associated with gas turbine exhaust temperature.

Tfire is the CALCULATED value of the firing temperature--which is the temperature of the gases LEAVING the first stage turbine nozzle (NOT the temperature in the combustor(s) where the fuel is being burned--it is the temperature of the gases as they exit the first stage turbine nozzle as they begin to pass through the turbine section (first stage buckets; second stage nozzles and buckets; and third stage nozzles and buckets).

Tfire is associated with the temperature of the combustion gases after passing through the first stage turbine nozzle--well before the gas turbine exhaust.

Tfire is--or was not--measured with any sensor or device, as it is considered to be stratified (not uniform across the area where it would be measured). There have been some machines with temperature-sensing "rakes" (because they look somewhat like a yard or garden rake) which have been used to measure Tfire, but they aren't (or weren't) generally very common.

ARES is considered GE proprietary information and a proprietary process. The inner workings of the ARES "block" are not usually described in any detail as GE doesn't want other people/firms to copy the process and its functions. There may be some more information available as ARES becomes more "mature" and stable, but it's not likely it will ever be fully documented. It's like the fuel control computer(s) in automobiles--while the function might be well understood the actually details are probably not, at least for the vast majority of users (drivers) and their mechanics.

 

Perhaps if you post the longname description of the "TFIRE factor" and the engineering units for the value that might be more helpful. (I'm not familiar with a "TFIRE factor."

Or post a photo or screen capture of the application code where the "TFIRE factor" is written to (a clear photo, please; sometimes photos of computer monitors can be grainy or blurry, and they're not helpful).

 

Wow.

How did you know the Tfire meaning?

I couldn't think that it is the firing temperature after passing through first stage blade!!

You're really great

Did you find it through GE manuals or TA(technical advisor) ?

 

The manuals provided with GE-design turbines should have some descriptions of many terms and acronyms. The BEST way to get familiar with GE manuals is to sit down in a quiet room (or even during night shift when not too much is happening) and start paging through them. Have a pad of PostIt Notes and put one on the pages/sections you want to return to. (Don't read everything you encounter--you'll never get through the manuals!) And, have a notepad to write down the sections and documents you want to return to. You can then use this list to prioritize what you want to return to first, and second, and so on. But, skim through the manuals one page at a time--and I GUARANTEE you will be amazed at what you discover is in the manuals. Often, some of the sections of the manuals are reproductions of other GE manuals (such as for the control system)--but that's not exactly what you're looking for, though it is very helpful to see what's in there.

Don't skip the Parts list section of the manuals--as an operator, technician or engineer there is VERY useful information in those volumes. When looking at GE drawings of systems and compartments and parts, there is usually a section in the tip right-hand corner of the drawing called NOTES. There is VERY helpful information in those NOTES sections, too. If you need help deciphering the acronyms in the drawings we can help (for example, OWSA means OtherWise Same As).

As an operator, technician or engineer YOU NEED your own copies of the P&IDs, as large as you can make them. You need to study them and read the NOTES sections of those drawings (sometimes the NOTES are in the top left-hand corner of P&IDs). You also need a copy of the Device Summary (or whatever they're calling it these days) which has the setpoints of pressure switches and temperature switches and transmitters and field devices--except for what's part of the generator and auxiliaries. For that, you'll need the generator drawings for the Junction Boxes and piping systems (Hydrogen and CO2 and air and hydrogen purity and scavenging system). You'll also need the Generator Control Panel elementary (schematic) because that will have some of the settings of the relays and transmitters (like MW and MVAR, if they're still using those).

MAKE YOUR OWN NOTES on YOUR OWN P&IDs!!! I can't stress this enough--study them, ask questions here, and make notes. Then to the extent possible you want to go out to the machine and find every device on the P&IDs (some of them are inside the L.O. Reservoir/Tank, but you can find them on the drawings in the Parts List volume(s) of the manuals. Knowing and understanding the P&IDs and knowing where to find the devices on the P&IDs will be critical to troubleshooting and maintaining the machine and auxiliaries some day--maybe sooner than you think.

When a machine is "sold" the FIRST documents which are produced for the machine are the P&IDs. And GE is very, Very good at making sure that the P&IDs are SPECIFIC to every machine. They may look a lot like some other GE P&IDs for other, similar machines--but there are usually very important differences, sometimes very subtle but very important. They are among the easiest P&IDs I've ever learned to read, and reading the NOTES is also very important and helpful. And, again, you need your own copy--regardless of your role in the plant, or as a service provider (or even as a TA--because TA's don't get quite the training everyone thinks they do...!!!). The average life of a GE field service person (TA) is about three years; it's a hard life and GE rides them hard, very hard. GE considers them to be assets and resources--and every asset and resource needs to be producing money, as much money as possible. Training costs money, and takes away from billable time-which reduces income and profits. Most of what GE field service people learn is OJT (On the Job Training), and that's NOT always the best way to learn. Especially when it comes to controls, there are LOTS of falsehoods and rumors and wives' tales and fairy tales and sea stories. Learn to use the documentation provided with the equipment--it has most of the information one needs, but it's NOT organized very well at all, so the best way for the most important information is to make your own copies, make notes and use high-lighters and keep them close at hand--always.

GE also has a LOT of publications that are somewhat generic and BORING to read--but they do have some very good information in them. The one I recommend the most is GER-3620, though I will caution you it is intended to be a one-size-fits-all document--meaning it's for just about EVERY type of GE-design heavy duty gas turbine made. So, as you read through YOUR COPY of GER-3620 (which can be downloaded from the World Wide Web) make notes and use your pencil to "scratch out" sections which don't apply to your machine. But, there is a wealth of information there--for everyone in the plant, you just have to wade through all of the stuff for machines other than yours. It will be worth it. There are good diagrams, operating recommendations, system descriptions, etc.

The hot gas temperatures leaving the first stage turbine nozzle are a few degrees cooler than the combustion gas temperatures inside the combustors--not much cooler, but they are a little cooler. And, it's the temperature of those gases as they start passing through the first stage turbine buckets, and later nozzles and stages of the turbine that are the most important for the long-term health of the hot gas path parts as well as the production of power (torque) which is applied to the generator rotor (if the machine is driving a generator). While that temperature can't be reliably monitored and controlled, it has been extensively monitored and documented over decades and the actual temperature can be well calculated, and that's important for producing power and protecting the machine against over-firing and thermal stresses.

Tfire is actually not a very good choice of name for the parameter it represents--everyone thinks (without really thinking about it, that is!) that it represents the temperature inside the combustor. But that's not the really important temperature--it's the temperature of the hot gases as they pass through the turbine section--beginning with the first stage turbine nozzles.

Anyway, I did this for almost 40 years (an anomaly in the field engineering world (we used to all be engineers--until it was decided that technicians could do the same work cheaper (which isn't true, exactly)). So, I hope I learned something and I don't mind sharing it in a public forum like this one--particularly this one, because over more than 20 years it's been a great resource for me and others. There's a wealth of GE-design heavy duty gas turbine controls-related information here--all searchable. I strongly suggest you use the 'Search' feature and I'm certain you will find things you never suspected. And, if not, we have answers to questions; we can clarify things, but I don't like responding to doubts (it's not a good word; look up the formal definition...).

 

Thank you i really admire you

I practed reading the manuals over and over

Your suggestion is so good!!