We have MK-V on two MS5001 machines, due to discontinuation of spares we want to upgrade it, can any one suggest MK-Ve upgrade is better or MK-VIe is a better option both technically and commercially.

 

If you're worried about parts availability, why would you consider a Mark Ve, since you will still have many Mark V cards (TCQCs, TCEAs, TCEB, TCTG, TCDAs, TCRAs) after the other cards have been removed and the Mark VIe cards installed in their place?

About the only compelling reason to perform a Mark Ve upgrade is if you need some performance upgrade that can't be accomplished with the Mark V turbine control processors <b>AND</b>you need a fast outage because you have to get your units back online quickly. And to the best of my knowledge, Frame 5 performance upgrades don't require Mark VIe capability.

With proper planning and execution, a full Mark VIe upgrade can be completed in a couple of weeks on most Frame 5s (with some overtime), provided that the only work being done is the turbine control system upgrade. Trying to perform a turbine control upgrade quickly at the same time as a mechanical maintenance outage on a gas turbine is just asking for delays and schedule over-runs. If you want the fastest possible outage, plan to work closely with the provider to understand all of the work that needs to be done and work with the provider to make sure that everyone knows what needs to be done and by when so that the outage can be completed as quickly as possible.

One last thing. If you're not happy with the way the field wiring is terminated in the Mark V, why would you consider keeping that field wiring as it is with a Mark Ve? Most people don't like the field wiring, and they don't like all the ribbon cables and the card carriers of the Mark V, none of which will changed with the Mark Ve.

Again, with proper planning and execution, you can complete a full Mark VIe upgrade faster than you think, as long as everyone focuses on this one task rather than trying to do the upgrade at the same time as a mechanical maintenance outage.

 

As of now I heard Mark VIe is having more facility.

G.Rajesh

 

G.Rajesh,

Please explain more fully what you mean by this statement. It is incomplete.

 

Hi CSA,
Well, I heard from friends that, Mark VIe is having the following advantage over to Mark V

1. Replacement of cards is easy
2. It'll support historian
3. Field wiring
4. Compact size
5. Use of toolbox

G.Rajesh

 

Maaz,
If you decide to purchase the control panel from OEM (GE), they will now only offer you the MKVIe and if you wait a bit longer it will be MKVIe S (SIL capacity).

Upgrade to MKVe should be considered as an interim solution which can be done within two working days. If you decide to go ahead for this option, GE use to have their exchange/ upgrade solution to MKVe, which basically give you as extra service the availability of all the MKVe parts and support.

Bear in mind that beside the processor changes in the panel, you will have the famous Toolbox installed in your brand new shining <HMI> with LCD display or in the meantime LED display. Using Toolbox is nice but if you are used to the famous rung displays and logic forcing display from the Cimplicity programs from your old system, you may need a bit of additional training.


Good Luck,
A. Oztas

 

G.Rajesh,

Let's address these "advantages" one by one.

>1. Replacement of cards is easy

It's probably <b>easier</b> than the process of replacing Mark V cards, but that's only because there aren't so many ribbon cables and one doesn't need a ladder or to replace PROMs. Easy is another issue altogether.

>2. It'll support historian

The Mark V supported Historian, even the Mark Vs with IDOS <I>s.

>3. Field wiring

The Mark VIe uses the Euro-style high density, double-stacked terminal boards on many of the I/O terminal boards; the difference is that on most of them the terminals can be unplugged from the bases without removing the field wires, making replacing the I/O terminal boards easier.

>4. Compact size

Would it surprise you to know that the same amount of hardware required to accommodate the same number of inputs and outputs as are necessary for a Mark V-equipped turbine can't be accommodated in the same physical space as the Mark V? Meaning that it takes more physical space for the Mark VIe cards to handle the same I/O as the Mark V.

>5. Use of toolbox

The Mark VIe uses ToolboxST, and while it has some redeeming qualities, there are some things that are downright awful about it. (I had an opportunity to work with Toolbox ST a month or so ago, and the way it displays "logic" along with the way one has to search for signals, and the absolutely idiotic way the scroll button of the mouse works in the main viewing "pane" made me very agitated. Ergonomics was definitely not a priority and the supervisor of whomever decided to make the mouse scroll button behave as it does should be demoted to janitor.)

I'd say there are as many minuses as pluses in the list you forwarded from your friends.

I would still rather have a Mark VIe Speedtronic controlling my turbine than a Mark V (mostly because of troubleshooting tools available in ToolboxST; I'm more about troubleshooting tools than just about anything else and ToolboxST has some fine features for troubleshooting). And there are some improvements in the way CIMPLICITY is configured (HURRAH!).

 

famous or INfamous?

 

>famous or INfamous?

Gentleman, what made you to have this doubt? "Toolbox/ToolboxST" are certainly good tools when you make relative analysis. Better look around the systems and then comment.

 

Hello maaz,

I suggest you to share the information of required spares for your MK V. Please share the problems/limitations causing the upgrade.

There are few resellers they sell used/unused spares of MK V in the market. Also experts on this site can suggest how to cope up with that.

If you are facing spares shortage for HMI only, than we can provide you the solution to upgrade only HMI and retain your DCS and I/Os. You may visit www.bnftech.com

 

CSA,

I work for the GE Control Solutions team in Colorado... I would like to incorporate your feedback to some of our Multi Generational Product Plans. Could you contact me offline to discuss?

Thanks,

Carlos Scott
email: [email protected]

 

Dear maaz:

After reading the responses to your post and reading many of your other threads I decided to respond.

CSA and others makes some valid points about the Mk V controlling a MS5001. The Mk V is a strong and adequate control system for a frame 5 turbine. There are many of third party companies providing used & unused parts as well as firms that specialize in Mk V that can assist to extend the life of your Mk V for many years.

If your issue with your Mk V is the inadequacy of the tools for troubleshooting & maintenance there is a operator interface that utilizes the power of the Mk V to give realtime trending with true SOE. You can learn more about this at www.itc-info.com. ITC system can help extend the life of your Mk V and also give you the data needed in some of your other threads in a manner to help monitor, control, troubleshoot and maintain.

 

I *like* the zoom on mouse wheel. Autocad has done that for years, so maybe I'm just used to it. It makes it easy to zoom in quickly on the mouse cursor. Apparently I'm in the minority though; its optional in V4.3 and later.

What other issues did you have with the logic editor?

 

This ain't AutoCAD, now is it? And it's not even trying to be AutoCAD, now is it? (Oops; it might be trying to be AutoCAD; it's certainly trying to be a one-size-fits-all turbine and generator control platform, so it might actually trying to be AutoCAD as well, mightn't it?) And, I'd be willing to bet money that it took you some time to get used to the way the scroll button worked in AutoCAD when it was first released (if you'd used it before it changed!), even if you came to like it. I can tell you that of the people I know who use ToolboxST, the overwhelming majority of them don't like the "feature".

There are a lot of people in GE who will be happy to hear (from an Internet forum) that an as-yet-unreleased version of ToolboxST has a new feature.... Hmmm.... Ahem.... Better drop this line, hadn't I?

Lastly, I detest the FBD display of logic. I end up having to manually draw almost every rung to be able to visualize the signal associated with each element of the rung, because the elements are identified with alpha characters, and the assignment of alpha characters is completely random. Even the "key" on the left side of the RUNG blocks don't always have the inputs in alphanumeric sort, from A to F, or whatever. Sometimes D is at the top, or G, and sometimes the input is a reference to the output of another block which doesn't have a unique signal name.

So, you can type in elements in a particular order, trying to coerce the editor to put them in alpha sort, but then it just randomly assigns alpha characters to the elements!

It's just maddening.

And, a lot of blocks which used to have 'Help' files associated with them are being converted to User Blocks, with no 'Help' files. That doesn't even help the GE personnel, much less the field people. It does help to "hide" some functionality, at least temporarily, from prying eyes. But, where there's a will there's a way, as I always say! It just takes a little longer (which most Customers and field people don't like, but that keeps some of us in business).

Even people who didn't initially like the graphical representations of GE blocks eventually come around to like them once they learn how to read them. All the information is there; it just takes a little time to learn how to "see" it. But, User Blocks without 'Help' files are little to no help at all.

Unless one gets out their pencil and paper and starts drawing something which should already be drawn.

I'm almost about to take krush's point of view, that GE seems determined to make everything increasingly more difficult. (I said <b>almost</b>, but not just yet.)

Which may make for more opportunities for others. As is usually the case.

Familiarity does breed contempt, doesn't it?

Too bad some people can't recognize contempt, from within or from without.

 

Carlos Scott,

Thanks for the offer; I'm thinking it over.

There are lots of people still working for GE that have said the same things, only better than I ever could. And, there's always the "voice of the Customer", though sometimes they don't actually say what they mean very well. And sometimes, the wrong Customers get asked for their input (meaning the people who actually use this equipment and software to perform their job, instead of those who manage or purchase the equipment and software and have a different frame of reference).

But, the people who have installed and commissioned the equipment and software would be the best ones to consult. Listen to them when they say that short wires are their worst problem. The product needs to try to put new terminal boards in nearly the same positions as the system it's replacing had them in (DIs, DOs, AIs, and AOs) instead of relying on interposing terminal boards and extra wiring and all the work that entails (drawing mark-ups, materials, labor).

And those high-density Euro-style terminal boards don't really work well with a lot of the wiring that was used on older control panels.

Perhaps we'll talk soon.

 

"And, a lot of blocks which used to have 'Help' files associated with them are being converted to User Blocks, with no 'Help' files. That doesn't even help the GE personnel, much less the field people. It does help to "hide" some functionality, at least temporarily, from prying eyes. But, where there's a will there's a way, as I always say! It just takes a little longer (which most Customers and field people don't like, but that keeps some of us in business)."

well , user blocks or Macros do not have any associated help files with them because they are 10-15 rungs coleased to form a cute looking single block. to know how this user block is synthesized , you just have to click the user block to highlight it, look at the left side "tree" drop out, click on the "+ blocks" and you will be transported to a new page which does the calculation of the user block. You will see that there will be 10-15 rungs here. all doing mundane jobs like boolean logic, ordinary math, some timers all arranged sequentially. This type of user blocks exist for repeatable jobs, like multi input timers, push button logic and in some cases, extended combustion monitoring.

It is true that field and maintenance personnel do not know much about them. but hey now it is out in the open . but yes it does create opportunity for GE personnel who have proprietary knowledge to come and do a simple rung editing on the mysterious " big block" with no help . lol.

Toolbox and Toolbox ST is one of the good GE tools/product out there. it is a great tool as it combines all that is needed by a field personnel to trouble shoot into one compact software, diagnostics, system architecture overview, trending etc. If you want a name of a really hard to understand and insanely difficult to modify/maintain system, it will be cimplicity. People nick name it complicity, as a simple thing as a button addition will take you anywhere from half an hour to eternity . A comparable experion TPS takes 5 min to build set up and run.