I have a brief question:

Did the vibration sensor on bearing no 2 read if it reached the value of the trip, will trip the unit ?
is it non redundant sensor?

 

Well the answer can be found on the Trip logic Matrix for this installed unit

Don't you have read the OEM manuals and application code /CSP files.

 

In the control circuit, the sensors are divided into:
MS9001E Vibration Transducer assignment
Redundant :
BB1 - 39V-1A
BB2 - 39V-1B
Non Redundant : BB3 - 39V-2A
Redundant :
BB4 - 39V-3A
BB5 - 39V-3B
Generator :
Redundant :
BB9 - 39V-4A
BB10 - 39V-4B
Redundant :
BB11 - 39V-5A
BB12 - 39V-5B
For non redundant sensor if it reaches the trip value the unit will trip
but, is it accepted to trip the unit for single sensor reading?
am asking if any one have Actual experience with this?

 

Ok I got your point
You trying to know if it is 1 out f 2 bad reading give a trip or 2 out of 2 readings are used ..

OEM ( Is that unit from GE Europe Belfort?) should provided manuals describing what you looking for.

 

After have read O&M manual for frame 9E it appears that you should get Alam "Transducer fault " while unit keeping runing till change the faukty transducer..

I will check what about redundant sensors/transducers..alarm/trip matrix ..

 

OEM does not explain trip philosophy on vibration.
my units are GE 9E Mark vie control system, If you have any information regarding this topic I will be very grateful to you!
Because we on the site are very different about reading the sensor on bearing 2. Does it cause a trip to the turbine or not?

 

I checked O&M maual it is saying that to get Start permissif L3STCK3=1 (Start check) There should eb at least half of the transducers/sensors for generator and gas turbine "normal"

As you said it doesn't saying about logic tripping philosophy for redundant sensors..

What is Manufacturer /OEM of the Vibration monitoring rack system ( is that a Bently nevada ) if yes try to get documentation
There should be something in a document as I worked with GE Belfort and they use to provide kind of tripping matrix diagram

 

yes its Bently Nevada vibration montoring system.
i will check for any information.
and thank you very much for your time.

 

I know that there is Vibration sensor health check done in the app code look at the app code it can give you an answer!

 

I would look at the V39VV7 BLOCK DIAGRAM in the app code ..

 

good morning, do yoy find any thing about vibration trip logic?

 

Did not have a Matrix tripping diagram for Frame9E

Did you search on the documents that you got from GE Power?

 

Can you please provide the values of the various Control Constants passed to the BBL? That should help us understand how the BBL was configured. This would include any passed parameter with a "K" in the signal name as well as GT_REDPAIRS, and any other Control Constants I may have overlooked.

Have you tried right-clicking on the BBL and selecting "Item Help" or "Block Help" if its not greyed out? Sometimes (but all too infrequently lately) that will pop up a somewhat helpful description of the block that can be informative at times.

With respect to the comment about B-N rack/monitor and sensors, it was always my experience that GE-design heavy duty gas turbines monitored velocity vibration pick-ups (also know as "seismic pick-ups) and alarmed and tripped on those sensors. Many newer GE-design heavy duty gas turbines also have B-N proximity probes (and a keyphasor sensor) and sometimes the B-N proximity probes were connected to BOTH the Mark* turbine control system AND the B-N rack/monitor. It was rare--but not unheard of--to trip using the B-N system; it was usually just provided for the quality of the vibration monitoring (ability to determine much more about vibration and/or unbalance issues than the velocity probes could ever provide). Some GE Mark* HMIs had a special page for the B-N sensor information (easy access without having to look at the B-N rack/monitor for details). Sometimes, the B-N rack/monitor was configured to alarm on excessive B-N sensor indications, but rarely to trip the unit--that was primarily left to the Mark* (tripping, as well as alarming--but only on the velocity (seismic) pick-ups).

It was my recollection--and I'm NOT familiar with the BBL attached to Post #3--that the velocity (seismic) pick-ups were grouped together (turbine; load gear, if applicable; and generator) and when there was a single pick-up on one bearing in a group it would be included in the tripping scheme IF one of the other redundant pick-ups ALSO indicated high vibration. This was done to eliminate single-point tripping, and the control philosophy was also that if the Number 2 bearing was "rocking and rolling" then it was likely that the vibration was being transmitted along the turbine shaft to the Number 1- or Number 3 bearing. But, this was ALSO done before GE Belfort got involved in making decisions about GE-design heavy duty gas turbine operation (which is generally poorly documented and very convoluted (needlessly complicated)).

If the equipment, or the Mark*, was provided via GE Belfort one really has to read and understand the entire associated logic--not always just the BBL.

But, again, I'm not personally familiar with the BBL in Post #3, and I don't have access to Toolbox/ToolboxST to do any investigation at this writing. MANY Mark* turbine control systems were shipped from the factory with incorrect parameters for things like vibration algorithms (BBLs) and Command State Blocks and were never caught and corrected during commissioning. And, again, when GE Belfort enters the situation, well, one can only really expect needless complication and frequently changing control philosophies.

I have also never personally seen a GE Belfort "tripping matrix". Perhaps James can attach a copy for us to review (and as an example of what to look for in the manual).

 

I thank you all for your interest and i have the Block help

 

now i repeat my question:

for bearing no 2 which has single vibration sensor and considered as non redundant sensor if it reaches the trip value, is it will trip the turbine

 

And you have forced me to repeat my request (at least for one specific Control Constant value: GT_REDPAIR).



As I read this block for the non-redundant sensor group (i.e., the redundant sensor of a group) to initiate a trip the NC contact on the output of the non-redundant sensor group at the top of the snippet has to be CLOSED, and for it to be closed the output of the OR block at the bottom of the snippet has to be "0".

With the value of ADJ_SEL a zero (from the snippet in Post #3) the output of that gate is "0" so that's one of the OR block's inputs that a "0"--and BOTH of the OR block's inputs must be "0" for the output of the OR block to be "0". And since you chose NOT to provide the value of ANY Control Constant as requested, you force me to ask again, but this time for the value of just one Control Constant: GT_REDPAIR. But now that you have the logic explained to you, you don't really need to reply do you? (HINT: If the value of GT_REDPAIR is any value greater than "0" then a non-redundant sensor of a sensor group won't trip the turbine.)

I reserve the right to be incorrect, as I have previously written I have no personal experience with this L39VV7 block. I am simply trying to read it based on my understanding of how BBLs work based on their graphical representations--which may or may not be entirely correct, particularly if GE Belfort was involved in writing the BBL and developing the graphical representation. This block help isn't written like others I'm familiar with (which is yet another reason why GE Belfort was probably instrumental in its development and documentation).

I'm also not certain you have provided the proper portion of the BBL help, if it even exists.

My best recommendation to you is: Ask GE for the answer. According to ControlsGuy25, GE Belfort is always quick to respond with accurate information when asked such a question. He may even volunteer to go off-line with your request (depriving others of the solution).

Blessed day!

 

the value of the REDPAIR =2

 

Can you please provide the values of the various Control Constants passed to the BBL? That should help us understand how the BBL was configured. This would include any passed parameter with a "K" in the signal name as well as GT_REDPAIRS, and any other Control Constants I may have overlooked.

Have you tried right-clicking on the BBL and selecting "Item Help" or "Block Help" if its not greyed out? Sometimes (but all too infrequently lately) that will pop up a somewhat helpful description of the block that can be informative at times.

With respect to the comment about B-N rack/monitor and sensors, it was always my experience that GE-design heavy duty gas turbines monitored velocity vibration pick-ups (also know as "seismic pick-ups) and alarmed and tripped on those sensors. Many newer GE-design heavy duty gas turbines also have B-N proximity probes (and a keyphasor sensor) and sometimes the B-N proximity probes were connected to BOTH the Mark* turbine control system AND the B-N rack/monitor. It was rare--but not unheard of--to trip using the B-N system; it was usually just provided for the quality of the vibration monitoring (ability to determine much more about vibration and/or unbalance issues than the velocity probes could ever provide). Some GE Mark* HMIs had a special page for the B-N sensor information (easy access without having to look at the B-N rack/monitor for details). Sometimes, the B-N rack/monitor was configured to alarm on excessive B-N sensor indications, but rarely to trip the unit--that was primarily left to the Mark* (tripping, as well as alarming--but only on the velocity (seismic) pick-ups).

It was my recollection--and I'm NOT familiar with the BBL attached to Post #3--that the velocity (seismic) pick-ups were grouped together (turbine; load gear, if applicable; and generator) and when there was a single pick-up on one bearing in a group it would be included in the tripping scheme IF one of the other redundant pick-ups ALSO indicated high vibration. This was done to eliminate single-point tripping, and the control philosophy was also that if the Number 2 bearing was "rocking and rolling" then it was likely that the vibration was being transmitted along the turbine shaft to the Number 1- or Number 3 bearing. But, this was ALSO done before GE Belfort got involved in making decisions about GE-design heavy duty gas turbine operation (which is generally poorly documented and very convoluted (needlessly complicated)).

If the equipment, or the Mark*, was provided via GE Belfort one really has to read and understand the entire associated logic--not always just the BBL.

But, again, I'm not personally familiar with the BBL in Post #3, and I don't have access to Toolbox/ToolboxST to do any investigation at this writing. MANY Mark* turbine control systems were shipped from the factory with incorrect parameters for things like vibration algorithms (BBLs) and Command State Blocks and were never caught and corrected during commissioning. And, again, when GE Belfort enters the situation, well, one can only really expect needless complication and frequently changing control philosophies.

I have also never personally seen a GE Belfort "tripping matrix". Perhaps James can attach a copy for us to review (and as an example of what to look for in the manual).

Hi

@WTF? GE Belfort back in the days provided to site/customer staff a document called Tripping Matrix diagram it is a excel file done by the Belfort engineering after reviewed and studies..

I don't have access to This document but for sure i will share when I got opportunity to work in a GE Belfort project!

 

the value of the REDPAIR =2

Now you got the answer you were looking for !

 

AGAIN, if I read the graphical representation of the block correctly, if the value of REDPAIR is "2" then the output of the OR block is "1" which means a non-redundant sensor vibration sensor value in TRIP state WILL NOT trip the turbine.

And, AGAIN, I suspect the graphic IS NOT completely correct--OR the relevant section was not provided (though it appears to be the correct section, without being able to see the block and the Block Help description it's pretty close to impossible to be certain)--and that would be very unusual (contrary to popular belief--because in years past the review process for block graphics was pretty rigorous).

Anyway, based on the information provided and my reading/interpretation of the snippets provided a single non-redundant sensor would not trip the turbine in my personal opinion and experience.

As written above, there have been some different controls philosophies over the many years about the #2 bearing vibration sensor reliability. Remember--the #2 bearing vibration sensor is:

1) NOT mounted on the #2 bearing housing (not on any GE-design Frame 9E heavy duty gas turbine I've ever seen or worked on);
2) IS mounted on the oil drain pipe of the #2 bearing housing;
3) is in a VERY hot area (especially if the unit has DLN combustors and/or steam injection).

I committed another cardinal sin with my responses to this question as I should have asked:

WHEN DID THIS VIBRATION PROBLEM START?

After a trip from load?

After a maintenance outage?

Did the vibration increase quickly or did it increase slowly to the present level?

AND, since we don't know what ANY of the other Control Constant values are that are being passed to the vibration BBL we don't know what the alarm and trip values for the #2 bearing sensor are set for? We don't know if the original poster thinks the turbine should be tripped but isn't, or if the turbine is tripping and he thinks it shouldn't be. But, we're done here.

And, FINALLY, the original poster has never responded to the questions about the B-N readings for the machine when the #2 bearing velocity/seismic probe is indicating excessive vibration.

So, that's all I'm ever going to add to this post.

Once again, finally, and with feeling: Blessed day!