Honestly, whats wrong with a 2 year degree?

I have a 2 year degree in engineering, yes i know im not an engineer, but i am capable of alot of what a PE can do. Also i have the manufacturing expirence that MOST engineers dont have, which gives me the know-how of how it all works.
Plus, robotics expirence. do any of you know what SkillsUSA VICA is? look it up, Skillsusa.org. maybe instead of finding 4 year people, try looking at their results from the national competitions. thats the best of the best in the nation.
By the way, i got first at nationals this year in robotics and automation technology. (beat out last years 1st place team by over 200%)
Thats all for now, let me know whats up!

 

The morons doing the hiring, (or their boss) put up with 4 years (or more) of BS from people that didn't have any common sense, and they figure if they had to do it so do you. Makes no difference if you know what you are doing or not.

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with a 2 year degree, however, what I think isn't the point. The job marketplace is competitive so many companies won't even consider candidates with less than 4 years because there are alot of people out there that they can choose from that do.

I honestly dont use much of what learned from 4 year education - most of what I got is from working in the field.

Starting out, it may be difficult to land that first job when there are alot of 4 year graduates right behind you.

So, If you have the time and money, get the 4 year degree.

 

I don't have a degree at all, and I am not any worse off for it. I think if you are competent the degree is a negligable asset. It will, however, make it infinitely easier to actually get that first job. Once you have that job it is strictly your performance that will carry you the rest of the way. I am lucky in that I was hired for a job based on the competentcy I showed in related areas, and my company then made an investment in me that I would like to think has paid off.

 

The usefulness of your qualifications are what the market will bear.

The amount of education someone has is in no way related to their actual intelligence or "horse sense".

Your curriculum vitae or resume ends up on a pile (they just can't interview everyone, and those old job fairs where you walked up to the booth of the company where you wanted to work don't seem to be coming to town anymore).
The c.v. goes through a rapid sort - baseline qualifications to stage 2, everything else to the shredder. It might not be the best way, some employers request electronic c.v.'s so that they can use key-word searches. Perhaps just as bad. In any case the point is - if you do not meet some sort of baseline then you are out.

I have seen c.v.'s thrown out for having silly return e-mail addresses, thrown out for bad English, thrown out for not having a four year pass or honour's degree - not necessarily engineering.

Only then did the H.R. people pay attention to the contents and look for people with true field engineering experience. Just in case you were wondering, they ended up hiring good people.

I suppose in a stronger economy if you don't fit the mould, then you have a better chance. However, when things are a bit tighter, fitting the mould really seems to help.

Also, what if you need a PE licence? Is your degree accredited with your province or state for a licence? I did not do a four-year degree for fun, but it was what was required.

As noted in other replies, the theoretical stuff we learn for four years is often lost and replaced with nuts-and-bolts field experience; but the degree got me the job in the first place. My PE licence, by the way, is dutifully renewed along with a written complaint regarding the outrageous fee every year.

RA

 

This disconnect from reality is really tragic as the amount of directly applicable knowlege gained from most degree programs is diminishing and has been for decades. But they do put people on an equal basis in their ability to deal with math and communicate. And it greatly increases your earning power whether you are any good or not.

From a perspective of 30+ years in various facets of the technology boom, I have an observation:

There is a certain percentage of people who move things, who really know what they are doing. There is at least an equal percentage who really don't. I have never observed possesion of a college degree to make the slightest difference in these percentages. A very poor predictor of
success.

So to some a college degree is a spring board, a chest of tools needed along the way. To others it's simply a meal ticket.

Regards

cww

 

There is nothing wrong with a 2 year degree and certainly experience counts. And technicians (and I use that as a general term to include technicians, designers, technologist, etc.) are the bedrock of the technical world. There are I'm sure a few people out there with a two year degree with experience that are more capable than some engineers. I assume that you are referring to a 4+ year engineering degree in comparison to two year degree but there are 4 year technology degrees that could also be compared. So what's the difference between a 2 year technical degree and a 4 year technology degree?

There are no two year degrees that gives a person the equivalent of an 4+ year engineering degree. A simple comparison of the college catalogs and examination of the courses will indicated the difference in education. A simple explanation is that a two year degree emphasizes the "how," while a 4+ year engineering degree emphasizes "why". For example, a two year degree would tell you how a capacitor works while an engineering degree would tell you how and why it works. So you say, I don't need no stinking education to know the why, just the how to get things to work. And you are correct if you are a technician but not if you are a engineer. Now that may
seem a bit circular but, unfortunately, many engineering jobs contain a lot of technician/designer/technologist work which confuses people to thinking that a technician/designer/technologist and the engineer are the same except that the engineer has the title (and degree) and gets the big bucks. So what we need more technicians/designer/technologist and fewer engineers
(who can now actually do engineering work). We need to utilize people to their fullest and pay and recognize them appropriately for their performance.

It is a false generalization to say that engineers don't have manufacturing experience because many do. One could make the opposite generalization that most technicians have little true engineering experience. But generalizations or stereotyping such as these do little to further any intelligent discussion in this matter. Nor does stereotyping based on a limited sample size (how many technicians and engineers are in your sample that you made your judgments on?). Many companies are guilty of
stereotyping and fail to use their people to their fullest ability (and pay and recognize them too) or if they do, they don't pay them or give them the recognition they deserve. Many companies would benefit from having a
technologist position for their technicians who through their capabilities and talents and through development have moved above the regular technician and who are capable of advanced work including design level work and in some cases some engineering level work under supervision.

One should also not confuse education with experience. Both are important but serve different purposes. Education generally provides explanations and understanding of how/why things work while experience generally provides application specific information of how specific things work (or don't work) in a particular environment or situation. Education can provide you with Ohm's law, while experience will provide you with how Ohm's law works in 4-20ma instrument circuit. Experience without understanding is ignorance and extrapolating experience without understanding can get you into a lot of
trouble. Of course, the opposite is also true, education without experience isn't much use either because it's hard to apply all the understanding in the world when you have never seen anything in the world.

Also, please don't confuse what a PE is. A PE is an engineer who has taken some engineering tests, has the perquisite experience, and has passed a review by a state professional engineering board. As a result that engineer
is granted the title of engineer, certain legal rights to practice engineering, and legal obligations to meet while practicing engineering. The passing of the test, experience, and review does have some indication that
the PE has achieved certain things but does not necessarily indicate their overall competence as an engineer. They do, however, have something other technical people don't have and that is a legal obligation to be competent in the work that they do.

Basically you are not going to change any of the educational "practices" in the industry. If these change, they do so on a slow process affected by many factors, mostly economic, that we as individuals have little control over. Your best bet is to find a company to work for that appreciates your talents and performance with the rewards that you expect.

On thing a 4 year degree typically does give you is some courses in English and the ability to write better. I would suggest that you learn to use a spell checker and improve your writing a bit because one of the requirements
of being a high level technical person is to be able to write.

Bill Mostia
=====================================================
William(Bill) L. Mostia, Jr. P.E.
Partner
exida.com
Worldwide Excellence in Dependable Automation
[email protected] (b) [email protected] (h)
www.exida.com 281-334-3169
These opinions are my own and are offered on the basis of Caveat Emptor.

 

Nothing's wrong with it - some of the 'dumbest' (or daily-life disfunctional) people I know have PhD.

But be mindfull of how most big firms work. They get 25 applications for a "good" engineering job. Some HR clerk will filter through and throw 15 of those out. Likely expected salary, years experience, and formal education will be the main criteria in this cull - they'll cull apps
"above" or "below" the expected numbers.

Then the 10 remaining are reviewed by the engineering manager in charge of hiring for this position.

- LynnL

 

Re-read you lasr paragraph ,and then stop throwing stones "On thing a 4 year degree ....I suggest you use a spell checker" sometimes even spell checkers do not catch dat der bad englush ... "One thing"

Dave

 

Hi All

I don't have a 4 year degree, in fact I don’t have a degree at all, I have a diploma, however I couldn't agree more with the DAVCO Automation respondent.

If you wish to take on the holders of 4 year degrees on the issue of the validity of their qualifications, and that is what you are doing, then I would suggest paying some attention to Grammar and spelling, obliterate the
use of popular phrases such as "what's up" and restrict yourself to appropriate usage of words such as "like" or in this case "first" otherwise your credibility ruins any impact your argument may otherwise have achieved.

I may add that even the title of the post is grammatically inappropriate and appears to be missing a capital letter at the beginning of the first word, rather speaks for itself on the issue of qualifications.

Regards
Donald Pittendrigh

 

I wonder what a "you lasr paragraph" is? Possibly an example of what I am talking about? My spell checker appears to be good enough to at least catch "lasr" as a misspelled word but would not catch the "you" which obviously should have been "your."

In any case, you are absolutely right that I did have a typo in the last paragraph of a long post that was not caught by my spell checker (and my spell checker works hard at times), nor by my proof reading. But that does not mean I shouldn't use the spell checker, proof read, or strive to use good English. Anyone is welcome to compare the quality of the post that I wrote about and my post (or any other post that I have made to the AList and there have been quite a few) in regards to spelling and English. I make no claims of perfect spelling or English, but what I do do is to strive to minimize my misspelled words and any poor English, to be concise, logical, and complete, and to improve my technical writing.

Technical people are notorious for poor English and spelling, and less than concise and logical writing (and even worse, incomplete writing, poor documentation being an example). While those with additional English and other courses that require critical writing skills (also seen in 4 year programs) are typically better in this area, many still fall short of the mark because they don't consider these skills important. However, having been in this business a long time, the high quality technical people that I have met over the years all had good quality communication skills, both verbal and written, as well as good interpersonal communication skills.

So I do think that the original point is still valid, good quality writing is a requirement of a high quality technical person and the use of the spell checker (if you have one) in your e-mail program is a small consideration when communicating with others.

Bill Mostia
=====================================================
William(Bill) L. Mostia, Jr. P.E.
Partner
exida.com
Worldwide Excellence in Dependable Automation
[email protected] (b) [email protected] (h)
www.exida.com 281-334-3169
These opinions are my own and are offered on the basis of Caveat Emptor.

 

The same could be said of a great many professional engineers as well. The ability to communicate clearly is certainly a necessary skill for a responsible engineering position. Unfortunately, some people seem to feel that possessing a grand bit of paper exempts them from such troublesome details.

--

************************
Michael Griffin
London, Ont. Canada
************************

 

The same could be said of a great many professional engineers as well. The ability to communicate clearly is certainly a necessary skill for a responsible engineering position. Unfortunately, some people seem to feel that
possessing a grand bit of paper exempts them from such troublesome details.

--

************************
Michael Griffin
London, Ont. Canada
************************

 

Hi All

One of the most fundamental functions of responsible engineering persons is reporting and documentation. If this cannot be done (in our case) in clear and concise English then there is little point in recording the details, and therefore little point in doing the work.

Obviously the lower down you are in the engineering's evolutionary food chain, the less importance is attached to good communication skills.

One of my functions in my industry is to produce functional specifications for the projects on which I work, my most recent document reached 300 pages and was about one stacker reclaimer. I can assure you it is not easy to write 300 pages about one boring machine and not have the reader loose attention from page 1 to page 300, it is also important to record accurately and concisely, the facts you are dealing with, a document such as this one, lives for years and gets updated over and over, and read by several people repeatedly over decades, just think of the consequences of trivializing such a document by writing sections of it in l33t as several readers of the
automation list are prone to do.

I can just see it, "if u r @ the travel nd limit u must ngage the travel nd limit override + put ur finger on the travel 4ward pushbutton 2 move the machine back 2 the operational area", sorry I don't do this l33t thing as
well as others do, but trust I make my point. Regard the automation list as a place to practice your communication skills and it will be a better place for all.

Bill, obviously the original point is still valid, however the very fact that people are criticizing the grammatical and spelling content of your post, demonstrates that you have allowed them to get off the track while reading your post, your point of view was diluted by inappropriate use of the language, QED.

Cheers
Donald p

 

First of all may I suggest the book "Don't sweat the small stuff - and its all small stuff". This alone could ad 4-5 years to your life because apparently this really bothers some of you.

Most of us do not have nor do we care that much about proper English and spelling and grammatically correct sentences on an automation list.

We are lucky in this economy to have time to spend on this list at all. So we are interested in quick to the point answers (which this probably is not)

Hence the creation of IMHO and : ) symbols etc (shorthand) to speed the communications....none of which you will find in Webster's.

Now my teachers in school would be rolling over and yes professional documents should be "perfect" but for gosh sakes this is just a forum. It is like (get me on that one) a bunch of guys sitting in a pub and gabbing with each other. Rubbing elbows and passing info on , very informal .... Once in a while a guy/gal might even burp heaven forbid.

You can start the "grammatically perfect Automation list" list and see how many people will stay on it when you knock them off for spelling and proper English errors.

Lighten Up:

Dave

 

This has been an interesting discussion, and helps illustrate why the
salaries in the engineering profession lag the medical and legal
professions. There's probably nothing wrong with a 2 year degree. In fact,
if you leave out the non-engineering courses, the non-discipline specific
courses, the math courses (how often do use anything more complicated that
square root of 3?), and any other courses that aren't trade specific, you
could rename this topic "honestly, what wrong with a grade 9 shop course
degree?" (not picking on those with grade 9 education, it's just that's when
I became interested in electricity).

Just for fun, lets apply the same reasoning to the medical profession. Why
do they need a 4 year undergraduate degree, and how many of the next 4 years
do they really need? And if we use the same reasoning for lawyers, the rates
for malpractice probably won't go up. Maybe someone will come up with a 4
year combined engineering/medicine/legal degree.

And as far as grammer and spelling go, I thought it was one of the
engineering trade marks. Now that being a sexist beer drinker is socially
unacceptable, it's all we have left!

Danny Scott, P. Eng.
Fredericton NB
Canada
[email protected]

 

Most of this depends on what you exactly end up doing, and what type of person you are and a lot of other things...

As for math, well I have used - if not all - most of the maths I learned at school, but then I am in the education area teaching people like some of you about process control and similar. In that work I need to do simulations and so on so I need more math.

There are one more point to it, it wise to learn some more than you actually are expected to know. The point is that you forget, and you do remeber the improtant stuff easier if you learn a little bit more and thereby gains a better understanding. You will then forget the extra piece you learned but keep the understanding of the important parts.

Let's put in an example: An asyncronous motor feed only by one phase needs a capacitor.

The above statement is partly true, partly untrue. the motor won't start without the capacitor but when it have started it will continue to run. Without the capacitor it can run in any direction and will continue in whatever direction it did start.

Some of you don't have any clue about what I am talking about.

Some of you says asyncorous motors can't run from one phase at all.

Some of you agrees to the first statement, because that is how you connect asyncronous motors to a one phase source but doubt the second.

Some of you knows the second statement to be true but don't understand why.

Some of you understand why.

You don't have to answer why it does this or claim I am wrong, I am of the later category, I have tested it, and yes it is working. - And no I won't explain why in this forum, this is just an example.

What's the point then? Well, depending on how much education you have (not necesarily equal to how long it took to get it) you have more or less knowlege and understanding, you can probably do your work, but might have easier to understand others around you and/or expand to other types of work. The more you know the faster and easier do you learn a new related thing since there are less knowlege you miss.

Ok, this turned out to be a long post but my end statement is this: "The most important thing you learn in school is how lo learn."

/Johan Bengtsson

Do you need education in the area of automation?
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