Select PLC Brands and SCADA software for a new plant

Hello everyone,

We are in a position to select PLC and SCADA system for a new plant in South America. The plant will have 5000-10000 tags, 50-100 analog control loops. I am wondering if anyone can give me some recommendations about choose right PLC brands from Emerson,Allen Bradley, Schneider and Siemens and SCADA software. we prefer to have Ethernet/IP communication protocol.

Anybody has experience about Ignition from Inductive Automation? is it good Scada software?

Many thanks!
 
Hello everyone,

We are in a position to select PLC and SCADA system for a new plant in South America. The plant will have 5000-10000 tags, 50-100 analog control loops. I am wondering if anyone can give me some recommendations about choose right PLC brands from Emerson,Allen Bradley, Schneider and Siemens and SCADA software. we prefer to have Ethernet/IP communication protocol.

Anybody has experience about Ignition from Inductive Automation? is it good Scada software?

Many thanks!
Hello
We would be glad to support if you tell us what kind of application /plant configuration is the plant....

Ignition is good Scada ...the major OEMs IN Fact offer good solutions...the point is how gonna be used this equipment ( Historian, event log report, Databass access, Third party or not...) so many points have to be taken in consideration befor choosing right equipment.

James
 
Hello
We would be glad to support if you tell us what kind of application /plant configuration is the plant....

Ignition is good Scada ...the major OEMs IN Fact offer good solutions...the point is how gonna be used this equipment ( Historian, event log report, Databass access, Third party or not...) so many points have to be taken in consideration befor choosing right equipment.

James
Hi James,
Thanks for replying! This Is Lithium brine plant. Brine is pumped from well fields to a series of evaporation ponds. Concentrated brine is then pumped to process plant which is consists of a few major circuits. Reactors, filters are in the circuit. Final product is lithium carbonate. Not sure those information is enough or not. Please let me know if require more.

In terms of scada, all you mentioned will be used. On top of those ones, alarm systems, asset management, reporting system and so on. And will be go for additional historian server as well.
 
Hi Jay,

thanks for your inputs!

Well you have well described the plant configuration...
Now it remains about safety integrity /protection of the equipments indeed of the plant ...did you think about that point...
I that facility is having kind of micro/grid ....

James
 
VTScada from Trihedral in Canada. Excellent software and user interface. Comes with all kinds of native drivers for most all of the major OEMs to communicate directly, as well as OPC.

Extensively used in the water treatment industry and Ontario Hydro uses the software in the power generation industry province-wide.

I have recently become aware of a Florida-based company that has a really top-notch line of PLCs, widely used in the nuclear power generation industry, as well as other industries that require redundant control systems: RTP Corporation. Their equipment has a 10-year warranty and a very high MTBF (Mean Time Between Failure) number. And, it's not outrageously expensive. Their HMI software seems to be very capable, as well, with lots of data archival and retrieval functionality, as well as high-speed trending. Their pricing is, again, very, very, very affordable.

The major OEMs listed in the original post all offer some interesting features, and while I have no personal experience with Ignition, I wish I did. It looks very interesting. But, I do have experience with the VTScada product, and it's great. I have a pasing familiarity with the RTP Corp. equipment, and would love to have more hands-on experience with it. Who wouldn't want to work at a plant with control equipment with a very high MTBF number--and a 10-year warranty??? (While I've seen control systems last well into their 30's and 40's, the individual components just don't even make it to six or seven years without good preventing maintenance (housekeeping, usually--which is a forgotten aspect to control systems these days....)

A couple of different suggestions--neither is "alternative" or way outside the mainstream; both are just not so well-known in some circles--but they both should be.
 
Hi Jay,

thanks for your inputs!

Well you have well described the plant configuration...
Now it remains about safety integrity /protection of the equipments indeed of the plant ...did you think about that point...
I that facility is having kind of micro/grid ....

James
Haven't think too much about safety integrity level yet, I am not expert, please give me some advice if possible.
 
Hello Jay,

Frankly speaking, almost all brands offer quite similar features. However, there are some differentiators each those have that may take your attention. At the end, it depends on how you define your requirements.

From end-user perspective, the brand you choose shall have below capabilities (at least).

1. Efficient (price vs features).
Brine mining lithium employs huge numbers of motors. It is clearly seen from your first post that only 1% analog loop there. It means you don't need DCS here or PLC that offers DCS features unless you're seeking for fast deployment. However, some PLC already have built-in library so you can develop your application in a short duration. You can find PLC with built-in mining library for this purpose. Another important thing need to consider is the material of the hardware considering lithium brine has corrosive environment. Not every brands offer "harsh" or "coated" material for the entire components of PLC (processor, IO module, backplane, power supply, etc). Some brands that offer this feature put too much price difference compared to their standard version. However, there is still a popular brand will give you good price for this. Just googling.

2. Easy integration.
Integration here can be integration between PLC and SCADA and can be integration with the field device or Integration with future application (Industry 4.0 apps, IIOT, etc). There are some brands offer a holistic view engineering tool so you can program the PLC and SCADA in a single run rather than do it separately. But, if you will have various PLC brands and you want to combine them at SCADA side, there is a popular brand out there which is brand agnostic PLC. It can connect seamlessly with all PLC brands. It has great redundancy capabilities as well. Related to field device integration, not all PLC supports Remote IO (RIO) or Distributed IO (DIO) in a single hardware. And the last about IIOT integration you need to ensure the PLC has built-in Cyber Security certification to ensure your plant control system comply with the future apps integration.

3. Easy to maintain and reliable.
Maintenance is very important here. Some keywords that you may consider is CCOTF (Change Configuration On The Fly) means you can replace IO module, etc without stopping the PLC run. Another thing you need to consider is power supply. In mining plant, power sometimes not so reliable.. the voltage may drop a while but enough to initiate power recycle for PLC processor. You may need dual power supply so you can supply the PLC from two different sources (UPS and Normal line).

4. Easy to be modernized.
You must think about the modernization plan of the PLC. How you will modernize it when the life time comes to end (obsolete)? If the PLC HW obsolete but not the SCADA.. are you going to remove the SCADA as well? This is one of the benefit of PLC agnostic Scada.

5. Easy to get support.
It depends where you are. Is the local support is available at your region ? And.. you need to ask the principal how they handle complain from customer? If you found something bug in the PLC how they will involve their R&D to support you.. etc

I hope this helps and good luck for you and your project!
 
I'm a big fan of Ignition. It would definitely be my first choice.
For PLCs, I'm not really sure who has the market share in South America. I'd check the websites of the major suppliers and see if they have support nearby. Allen-Bradley / Rockwell, Siemens, and Schneider are the big names. Really, having local support is more important than any of the technical specs.
I'd also look closely at Bedrock Automation. I've never used their stuff, but they have a major focus on security, and integrate nicely with Ignition. They're relatively new, and I'm not sure about their support in South America.
Good luck!
-James Ingraham
Sage Automation
 
Hello Jay,

Frankly speaking, almost all brands offer quite similar features. However, there are some differentiators each those have that may take your attention. At the end, it depends on how you define your requirements.

From end-user perspective, the brand you choose shall have below capabilities (at least).

1. Efficient (price vs features).
Brine mining lithium employs huge numbers of motors. It is clearly seen from your first post that only 1% analog loop there. It means you don't need DCS here or PLC that offers DCS features unless you're seeking for fast deployment. However, some PLC already have built-in library so you can develop your application in a short duration. You can find PLC with built-in mining library for this purpose. Another important thing need to consider is the material of the hardware considering lithium brine has corrosive environment. Not every brands offer "harsh" or "coated" material for the entire components of PLC (processor, IO module, backplane, power supply, etc). Some brands that offer this feature put too much price difference compared to their standard version. However, there is still a popular brand will give you good price for this. Just googling.

2. Easy integration.
Integration here can be integration between PLC and SCADA and can be integration with the field device or Integration with future application (Industry 4.0 apps, IIOT, etc). There are some brands offer a holistic view engineering tool so you can program the PLC and SCADA in a single run rather than do it separately. But, if you will have various PLC brands and you want to combine them at SCADA side, there is a popular brand out there which is brand agnostic PLC. It can connect seamlessly with all PLC brands. It has great redundancy capabilities as well. Related to field device integration, not all PLC supports Remote IO (RIO) or Distributed IO (DIO) in a single hardware. And the last about IIOT integration you need to ensure the PLC has built-in Cyber Security certification to ensure your plant control system comply with the future apps integration.

3. Easy to maintain and reliable.
Maintenance is very important here. Some keywords that you may consider is CCOTF (Change Configuration On The Fly) means you can replace IO module, etc without stopping the PLC run. Another thing you need to consider is power supply. In mining plant, power sometimes not so reliable.. the voltage may drop a while but enough to initiate power recycle for PLC processor. You may need dual power supply so you can supply the PLC from two different sources (UPS and Normal line).

4. Easy to be modernized.
You must think about the modernization plan of the PLC. How you will modernize it when the life time comes to end (obsolete)? If the PLC HW obsolete but not the SCADA.. are you going to remove the SCADA as well? This is one of the benefit of PLC agnostic Scada.

5. Easy to get support.
It depends where you are. Is the local support is available at your region ? And.. you need to ask the principal how they handle complain from customer? If you found something bug in the PLC how they will involve their R&D to support you.. etc

I hope this helps and good luck for you and your project!


Very useful information! Thanks a lot!
 
HI,
I want to know the how to guess the price of SCADA/DCS softwars and approaches with out requesting suppliers or manufactureres from existing projects
Thank u!
 
HI,
I want to know the how to guess the price of SCADA/DCS softwars and approaches with out requesting suppliers or manufactureres from existing projects
Thank u!
Hi

ARE YOU REFERRING /asking only for DCS/SCADA Software or Hardware or Both....

IT really depending on your plant configuration ( I/O numbers , Equipments intertacing, like VFDs ..cOMMUNICATION /TOPOLOGY NETWORK /Architecture...)

Safety integrity level....


Lots of element can be take in account...

You got to tell us more on the plant configuration as each plant is unique with is own controls /monitoring system....

James
 
If I were to choose a SCADA, the first thing to consider would be communication (as “DA” in SCADA - Data Acquisition). Do you need to communicate to devices from a single producer (e.g. Siemens)? Then choose their SCADA too and it might save you time in configuration. Or do you need to communicate to PLCs, DCSs, or even other SCADAs from different producers? Then you want to find some “independent” SCADA.
(You write that you can also choose PLCs, that's excellent - however, in most factories we've been to, there are PLCs which are parts of various technological units, so they cannot be replaced or "chosen" without replacing the technology. Check also for that).

Look at their documentation. For example, I’ve been working for IPESOFT for almost 18 years, we develop & deploy SCADA/MES technology called D2000 and we have documentation online, so you can check the list of supported protocols (Communication Protocols). And not only that, there is detailed information on these protocols (what features are and are not implemented). Imagine that you need BACnet protocol. Many SCADAs have BACnet, but they mostly have it on UDP packets (it’s called BACnet/IP). But do they have it on the LON network so that you can communicate with old Desigos? Or do they have it on serial lines (BACnet/MSTP)?

What if you have a device (or - in the future- will have) using some specialized or rarely used protocol that the specific SCADA does not support? What are your options then? E.g. our system has a published KOM API which enables you to write your own driver (D2000 KomAPI).

Then there are other functionalities - like archiving, redundancy, security, web clients. You may or may not need this.

Plus financial things - what kind of licensing (tags, users, protocols, features) does the SCADA support; what are the maintenance fees; what is the cost of the upgrade to a new version (after several years), etc.

However, the most important thing I would do is learn from other people's experiences. Don’t ask only the producer (the marketing people will say yes to any question). Ask those people that already use the SCADA you chose (the longer the better). What problems does their system have? Are some things hard to implement or perhaps impossible? Have they performed upgrades to new versions? How easy was it? Is the system stable? No performance issues? Problems with big archive databases? Redundancy issues? How fast did they get a patch if they found a bug in SCADA?

I have indirect experience with a rather large project (12 mil Euro) in the energy sector that used a SCADA system (made in the USA, but I won’t name it). It seemed perfect & shiny in the beginning, but was not-so-good at the end of implementation (kind of like dating someone and marrying her .. only then you start to find out all the glitches and bugs :)

To name only 2 specific issues:

- writing to historian (archive database) via script took 2 seconds per value (and they needed to write several hundred thousands values every hour)

- after any non-trivial change of configuration of communication, the communication process had to be “reload” the configuration which caused ALL communications to be reset. Even those that should not be affected. Ouch.

So invest your time into talking to people who work with your chosen one every day and only then decide, if she’s good enough - so that your “marriage” can be a happy one, as divorces are expensive. Figuratively speaking :)
 
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