Frame 6B woodward gas valves LVDTs part number

Dear all

At the moment I am working at a power plant of six frame 6Bs, the fuel gas system is composed of a DLN1 SRV + GCV1 and GCV2 woodward valves.
Customer is struggling to check to part number of the LVDTs imbeded inside the gas valves to make procurement and all GTs are in operation hence we can not open any to check.
Can any one have the same package help with the PNs of the LVDTs?

Find below the gas valves type :

SRV-1 VALVE POSITION
GE STD
TYPE: 381A6159 P313

GCV1 PRIMARY GAS CONTROL VALVE
GE STD
TYPE: 381A6160 P0603

GCV2 SECONDARY GAS CONTROL VALVE
GE STD
TYPE: 381A6160 P0603

Regards
 
Hi

Can we know reason why you cannot find the PN on the delivered doculents that you got from OEm LIKE PART LIST DETAILS...
OR other OEM document..for me it is not normal to dont have acces to such document if you sayin taht all units are runing and cannot oepn any item..

You should be able to contact OEM ( Maybe GEEPE in this case) to give you such datas if not done yet...


I have a part list for frame6B but only showing KKS AND MLI (drawing ° references..)


Any time!
 
Did you ever try to look on the nameplate mounted on the pedestal of the Gas controls/stop ratio valves..

I use to see the nameplate with designated part number on these locations (body casing /pedestal..)no need to dismount anything normally...
if not available on hard copy ...( paper)..


You welcome!
James
 
Isulamu,

Hmmm..... So, I believe the SRV/GCV ControlsGuy25 is referring to is the decades old and proven combined SRV/GCV assembly, with one SRV and one GCV in one cast steel housing.

When GE purchased the turbine controls retrofit business from Woodward they agreed to buy X dollars of equipment each year from Woodward--and Woodward was thinking it would be MicroNet or Atlas or similar Woodward products. GE purchases Woodward fuel control valves instead of controls equipment. Many of these Woodward fuel control valves cannot be easily dissassembled to find part numbers, and I'm not even sure Woodward would sell individual fuel control valve components. Their fuel control valves are generally designed to be refurbished by Woodward. In other words, they are intended to have no field- or user-servicable parts/mechanisms. They have to be returned to Woodward for refurbishment/repair. In my personal opinion, Woodward fuel control valves are very low quality and need regular refurbishment. MANY sites have two sets of Woodward fuel control valves--one that is installed during yearly maintenance outages, and the ones which are removed are sent back to Woodward for refurbishment. (This is a GREAT business for Woodward, eh?) And when they are returned to the Customer, if one currently installed valve fails it's replaced with a recently refurbished valve. (Again, a great business for Woodward.)

But, I have this to add. I know you have been a "long time" reader/poster here on Control.com. So, you should know that LVDTs are, generally, very robust devices and don't usually even drift or go out of calibration or even fail for that matter. I do know of some LVDTs that are not very tolerant of heat, and some that are not very tolerant of vibration. They are "non-contact" devices, when installed correctly, meaning the moving portion (the armature, I think--I'm referring to the solid core rod that moves up and down into and out of the stationary portion of the LVDT) does not come into contact with the stator and coils of the device, which, again, are usually stationary. When they fail, they usually fail in such a manner that they indicate negative stroke (that's why GE uses a HIGH SELect comparator for choosing which if the LVDTs to use in the feedback loop for control. (They--at least the ones that GE used to specify and purchase and install on their combined SRV/GCV assemblies--rarely failed indicating a high position--but occasionally did, but usually when miswired.)

SO. the above begs the question: What is happening with the LVDTs on the Woodward valves? Is the fuel heated? (I know some of the Woodward fuel control valve assemblies are self-contained units, in a metal can, with only a little window to see a pointer inside the actuator to determine stroke visually). So, it would seem if the fuel was heated the assembly might get pretty hot and maybe the LVDTs would have issues. Is it excessively hot in the gas valve compartment? Is there a lot of vibration?

How old are these units? Or were they retrofitted with DLN combustion systems which included the Woodward valves?

How long have the Woodward fuel control valves been installed? When was the last time the fuel control valves were sent out for refurbishment? Was it to a Woodward facility?

What has been the Customer's operating experience with the valves? Good? Not so good? Poor?

What is the oil quality? Good? Not so good? Poor?

In other words, what makes one think the problem is the LVDT? Could it be dirty oil causing instability in servo operation?

Is the turbine control system a GE Mark*? Have you looked at trending data from the Mark* to analyze what might be happening?

Again, I just don't see that many LVDT problems on GE-design heavy duty gas turbines. Even those with Woodward fuel control valves and heated fuel. It just seems odd--to me. I have NOT seen every problem--but I've certainly seem my share, and then some. And, so I am very interested in why one would think the problems being experienced are LVDT-related? And, if so, was it just a bad batch of LVDTs? Are the valves under warranty from Woodward?

Have you tried contacting Woodward? (I have heard they aren't all that helpful on fuel control valves they sold to GE.... But, I've also heard recently that since they've occupied new headquarters in the USA their support operation has gotten better. But, that's anecdotal--I have no personal experience with Woodward support.

Anyway, I would be very grateful if you would take a few minutes to answer at least most of the questions above.

Thanks!!!
 
Hi

Can we know reason why you cannot find the PN on the delivered doculents that you got from OEm LIKE PART LIST DETAILS...
OR other OEM document..for me it is not normal to dont have acces to such document if you sayin taht all units are runing and cannot oepn any item..

You should be able to contact OEM ( Maybe GEEPE in this case) to give you such datas if not done yet...


I have a part list for frame6B but only showing KKS AND MLI (drawing ° references..)


Any time!
I totally agree with you, I could found the PN in the data sheet document shared to the customer, but unfortunately customer has already suffered from wrong PN with other Instruments and for the LVDTs the OEM representative (GE oil and gas) him self is not sure of it as a lot of RTOs are considered old and has been replaced by new codes. It is some sort of a mess I know, even myself I am confused, this is why I am looking through a different approach.
 
Isulamu,

Hmmm..... So, I believe the SRV/GCV ControlsGuy25 is referring to is the decades old and proven combined SRV/GCV assembly, with one SRV and one GCV in one cast steel housing.

When GE purchased the turbine controls retrofit business from Woodward they agreed to buy X dollars of equipment each year from Woodward--and Woodward was thinking it would be MicroNet or Atlas or similar Woodward products. GE purchases Woodward fuel control valves instead of controls equipment. Many of these Woodward fuel control valves cannot be easily dissassembled to find part numbers, and I'm not even sure Woodward would sell individual fuel control valve components. Their fuel control valves are generally designed to be refurbished by Woodward. In other words, they are intended to have no field- or user-servicable parts/mechanisms. They have to be returned to Woodward for refurbishment/repair. In my personal opinion, Woodward fuel control valves are very low quality and need regular refurbishment. MANY sites have two sets of Woodward fuel control valves--one that is installed during yearly maintenance outages, and the ones which are removed are sent back to Woodward for refurbishment. (This is a GREAT business for Woodward, eh?) And when they are returned to the Customer, if one currently installed valve fails it's replaced with a recently refurbished valve. (Again, a great business for Woodward.)

But, I have this to add. I know you have been a "long time" reader/poster here on Control.com. So, you should know that LVDTs are, generally, very robust devices and don't usually even drift or go out of calibration or even fail for that matter. I do know of some LVDTs that are not very tolerant of heat, and some that are not very tolerant of vibration. They are "non-contact" devices, when installed correctly, meaning the moving portion (the armature, I think--I'm referring to the solid core rod that moves up and down into and out of the stationary portion of the LVDT) does not come into contact with the stator and coils of the device, which, again, are usually stationary. When they fail, they usually fail in such a manner that they indicate negative stroke (that's why GE uses a HIGH SELect comparator for choosing which if the LVDTs to use in the feedback loop for control. (They--at least the ones that GE used to specify and purchase and install on their combined SRV/GCV assemblies--rarely failed indicating a high position--but occasionally did, but usually when miswired.) Thanks for your usual knowledgeable explanation.

SO. the above begs the question: What is happening with the LVDTs on the Woodward valves? Is the fuel heated? (I know some of the Woodward fuel control valve assemblies are self-contained units, in a metal can, with only a little window to see a pointer inside the actuator to determine stroke visually). So, it would seem if the fuel was heated the assembly might get pretty hot and maybe the LVDTs would have issues. Is it excessively hot in the gas valve compartment? Is there a lot of vibration?

How old are these units? Installed in 2014 and commissioned 2019 Or were they retrofitted with DLN combustion systems which included the Woodward valves? NO

How long have the Woodward fuel control valves been installed? When was the last time the fuel control valves were sent out for refurbishment? Was it to a Woodward facility? As far as I know, only GCV1 leak test failure appeared in the recent year and it was serviced by a third party company.

What has been the Customer's operating experience with the valves? Good? Not so good? Poor? Good so far

What is the oil quality? Good? Not so good? Poor? Good

In other words, what makes one think the problem is the LVDT? Could it be dirty oil causing instability in servo operation? There is no problem for the moment but the customer does not have any LVDT spare at site, and could not get the right PN number from data sheet provided by BH, their representative is mentioning that the RVO mentioned is no longer existing and he is not able to provide the new one.

Is the turbine control system a GE Mark*? Have you looked at trending data from the Mark* to analyze what might be happening? MarkVIe and as I have mentioned no issue for the moment is observed

Again, I just don't see that many LVDT problems on GE-design heavy duty gas turbines. Even those with Woodward fuel control valves and heated fuel. It just seems odd--to me. I have NOT seen every problem--but I've certainly seem my share, and then some. And, so I am very interested in why one would think the problems being experienced are LVDT-related? And, if so, was it just a bad batch of LVDTs? Are the valves under warranty from Woodward? NO

Have you tried contacting Woodward? (I have heard they aren't all that helpful on fuel control valves they sold to GE.... But, I've also heard recently that since they've occupied new headquarters in the USA their support operation has gotten better. But, that's anecdotal--I have no personal experience with Woodward support. VERY BAD SUPPORT, they are not even responding to our emails.

Anyway, I would be very grateful if you would take a few minutes to answer at least most of the questions above.

Thanks!!!
CSA

Thanks for you reply which reminds me of our old exchanges.
So to answer your few questions please find my comments in RED
 
I totally agree with you, I could found the PN in the data sheet document shared to the customer, but unfortunately customer has already suffered from wrong PN with other Instruments and for the LVDTs the OEM representative (GE oil and gas) him self is not sure of it as a lot of RTOs are considered old and has been replaced by new codes. It is some sort of a mess I know, even myself I am confused, this is why I am looking through a different approach.
Thanks for these inputs..

Did you have check if PN are displayed on the nameplate of the desiganted Control/stop ratio valves...

Any time!
James
 
Isulamu,

Thanks very much for the responses to most of the questions; it's nice to get responses to questions....!

Very sorry to hear Woodward is not responding to the requests for information. I have seen this before with other vendors to GE; they seem to think they will violate some contract/agreement with GE if they provide any information or support. And, some probably think that once they sold their equipment to GE any problems become GE's problems. I would say, don't give up. I will try to find some contact information if I can. As I said, they have moved (though email addresses shouldn't have changed!) so I make no guarantees. Also, people change positions over time in organizations. And, some people leave for greener pastures (though Woodward's pasture is pretty green in Northern Colorado--in MANY ways (in the USA, green is also the color of money...! though even that is changing with some peach-colored hues beginning to appear more and more in the bills to try to prevent counterfeiting)).

Anyway, before I leave this thread. In my opinion, unless the gas fuel is of exceptional quality, those Woodward valves ARE going to begin exhibiting problems sooner rather than later. I would strongly suggest the Customer get a set of spare valves (one of each: SRV, GCV1 & GCV2). (Especially since they have five (5) turbines!) This is the best way to have "spares" on hand. That way, as I wrote above, when maintenance outages come around they can replace the valves and send the ones taken out of service with new/refurbished valves. Or, when some valve or valve component fails (such as an LVDT) they can simply replace the valve instead of removing the valve and trying to disassemble it to replace the faulty component. Again, most of the Woodward control valves I have seen are not made for easy disassembly/repair. Not at all. And, they are of the same quality as the prior combined SRV/GCV assemblies. Not at all.

Best of luck!
 
Lest anyone think I’m trying to sell fuel control valves for Woodward—think again. I’m not a fan of the design or quality.

They do honor there warranties.
 
Isulamu,

Thanks very much for the responses to most of the questions; it's nice to get responses to questions....!

Very sorry to hear Woodward is not responding to the requests for information. I have seen this before with other vendors to GE; they seem to think they will violate some contract/agreement with GE if they provide any information or support. And, some probably think that once they sold their equipment to GE any problems become GE's problems. I would say, don't give up. I will try to find some contact information if I can. As I said, they have moved (though email addresses shouldn't have changed!) so I make no guarantees. Also, people change positions over time in organizations. And, some people leave for greener pastures (though Woodward's pasture is pretty green in Northern Colorado--in MANY ways (in the USA, green is also the color of money...! though even that is changing with some peach-colored hues beginning to appear more and more in the bills to try to prevent counterfeiting)).

Anyway, before I leave this thread. In my opinion, unless the gas fuel is of exceptional quality, those Woodward valves ARE going to begin exhibiting problems sooner rather than later. I would strongly suggest the Customer get a set of spare valves (one of each: SRV, GCV1 & GCV2). (Especially since they have five (5) turbines!) This is the best way to have "spares" on hand. That way, as I wrote above, when maintenance outages come around they can replace the valves and send the ones taken out of service with new/refurbished valves. Or, when some valve or valve component fails (such as an LVDT) they can simply replace the valve instead of removing the valve and trying to disassemble it to replace the faulty component. Again, most of the Woodward control valves I have seen are not made for easy disassembly/repair. Not at all. And, they are of the same quality as the prior combined SRV/GCV assemblies. Not at all.

Best of luck!
Thanks again CSA for your inputs, Hopefully you will be able to find anything which can help with the query.
Sorry again for my delayed reply.
 
Isulamu,

Can you give a quick update on this thread..

James
I would really apologize for this delay since I was travelling the last couple of days and for some reason I did not recieve email notifications for your replies you and CSA.
For your question I have already checked and for all gas valves there is no PN mentioned of the LVDTs.
 
Hi Isulamu,

I understood ...

Thanks for your updates!

Here what i got on frame 6B LVDT part number :
GE GAS TURBINE SPARE PARTS FRAME 6 Transducer LVDT GE Dwg NO311A5178PT6 361A5813PT2

item​
description​
1​
Transducer, LVDT,GE Dwg no. 311A5178PT6 / 361A5813PT2, SCHAEVITZ SENSORS
for Gas Turbine, GT2B of Glow Energy Public Co., Ltd.​
FOR MORE GE GAS TURBINE SPARE PARTS, PLEASE CLICK​


I dont knwo which drawing /schematic that you got but answer should be over there!
Also do you know brand /OEM of these LVDTs...

I hope it can help!*

Cheers,
James
 
I got also these informations and i guess taht it is useful to check that P/N:
*
Primary Gas Control Valve109E9617-G007Primary Gas Control Valve
Spares for above PN
312A6077-P008SERVO VALVE
185A1354-P010ORING
339A6088-P007HYD CYLINDER
185A1354-P113ORING
185A1354-P117ORING
315A2660-P003FILTER ELEMENT
311A5178-P006LVDT
298A0259-P011ROD END
COUPLING ASSY
318A9739-P001GASKET


I am sure that it can help !

Any time!
James
 
Gas Control Valve109E8651-G005Gas Control Valve
Spares for above PN
339A6088-P002CYLINDER
311A5178-P023LVDT
298A0259-P011ROD END
318A9732-P001GASKET
315A2660-P003HYD FILTER
185A1354-P117O-RING
318A9739-P001GASKET
185A1354-P113O-RING
185A1354-P116O-RIN
 
Stop Ratio ValveStop Ratio Valve
CYLINDER
361A5813-P002LVDT
312A6077-P031SERVO VALVE
SPRING SEAT
FILTER CARTRIDGE
COUPLING ASSY
185A1354-P113O-RING
185A1354-P117O-RING
185A1354-P010O-RING
 
Hi Isulamu,

I understood ...

Thanks for your updates!

Here what i got on frame 6B LVDT part number :
GE GAS TURBINE SPARE PARTS FRAME 6 Transducer LVDT GE Dwg NO311A5178PT6 361A5813PT2

item​
description​
1​
Transducer, LVDT,GE Dwg no. 311A5178PT6 / 361A5813PT2, SCHAEVITZ SENSORS
for Gas Turbine, GT2B of Glow Energy Public Co., Ltd.​
FOR MORE GE GAS TURBINE SPARE PARTS, PLEASE CLICK


I dont knwo which drawing /schematic that you got but answer should be over there!
Also do you know brand /OEM of these LVDTs...

I hope it can help!*

Cheers,
James
Is it for 6B equipped with Woodward control valves? Can you share those drawings? NO311A5178PT6 361A5813PT2
 
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