GT FA6.03 Temp.Match
- Thread starter Merabiko8
- Start date
Ok,
What is the nominal value for exhaust temp??
At Which load the unit is oeprating ??
Is there a Exhaust temp limits activated ?? you should check that ?
What is the control mode activated when this occuring..?
with more datas we can add better support...
Your description of the event/situation is not well clear...
Which frame of turbine are you talking ...
Which model ,,.. 7MW is not telling us anything ...
I asked some questions in order to assist you but you dont event try to reply...
Any alarms annunciated .??
Please read my post clearly and try to answer to these questions
Otherwise I can not help you more ...
And write in English Please !!
HI everybody,
Is theere anybody who can share information about temperature matching function or have detailed description of this function? For 6FA units (Mark VIe TMR)
Is theere anybody who can share information about temperature matching function or have detailed description of this function? For 6FA units (Mark VIe TMR)
Hi
Here is some notes interesting on "Temperature matching mode":
The second mode is the temperature matching mode. In this mode, the exhausted gas
temperature is controlled according to a temperature reference signal whereas the load is
maintained to a minimal value (typically 8%). Usually, the goal of the regulation is to
maintain the GT outlet exhausts temperature constant (equal to the nominal value, in
order to optimize the efficiency of the HRSG and of the whole plant).
I am sure it can help to enghlight some points you are looking for...
As every units got his own appcode , without be able to check this program ,I cannot add more comments..
ControlsGuy25.
Here some notes from OEM manuals:
For GE design, there may be two phases of temperature matching. The first phase would typically happen only on a cold start, and would limit the gas turbine exhaust temperature while the HRSG pressurizes. Once the HRSG is pressurized, the steam turbine inlet bowl (either HP or Reheat, depending on which section is used to start the steam turbine) temperature is read, 100 degF is added to it and that value is used as a setpoint for the gas turbine exhaust temperature (with some minimum, maybe 700F).
For the steam turbine, you want the incoming steam to be close to but above the steam turbine inlet metal temperature. Too cold is as bad as too hot.
I am sure it can help !
Controls Guy25.
Hi everybody, especially I am interested in work principal of this function, before start up unit, I need activate this function, don't I? And of may be is there anybody here who knows what the set setpoints are?
Attachments
Does this function need if you don't use HRSG , or it can be useful,if you are working in simplecycle?
Hi,
Did you have a read on the last post i submitted here..
Also there are some threads discussing about Temp match mode on this forum, you can try to check out some of them.
What is type /frame of the unit?
I am surprised that you asking for setpoints here..Dont you have OEM documents/manuals /Control Constants reports or something similar ...
What is the status of the unit ( commissioning , already operating...)
We dont know the configuration of your site so I cannot add more...
Looking to hear back from you,
ControlsGuy25.
For simple cycle Iam not sure that this mode is selected ...It can be in case of Process steam or such as add on mode , from HRSG..
I did engineering &Commissioning on a project involving an Astom GT13E2 , supplying ( Steam process /Addon for installed ST through, even HRSG replacement through one GT- HRSG.
These units are installed in a Well know Industrial complex in Middle east..
Again without knowing how your plant is configured I cannot add more...
Ok, that's is great that this resource has so much similar information related to this subject, but this information can't explain my question about this function. It is a commercial phase At site, and unfortunately the vendor has not given any information about this function, so I am here ask you to explain or share information or maybe manual for this function (6F.03 and MarkVIe)
ControlEng99. The Temperature matching function on GE Heavy Duty Gas Turbines is usually used to assist in startup of the steam turbine generator by controlling the exhaust temperature of the gas turbine. Starting a cold STG will usually result in starting with a low exhaust temperature to control the rate of temperature rise of the STG metal. Starting a warm STG usually sets the exhaust temperature at a value close to or slightly above the actual STG bowl metal temperature. Operation of the system is not usually well documented or explained unless used during commissioning.
Activation of TM (Temperature Matching) is done with the unit online and the generator breaker closed. Usually load must be raised up so that TNR (Turbine Speed Reference) is within a particular window. I would have to see your application code to provide a specific value but your graphics appear to have some indication that will change color once the permissive is met. Once TM is activated the unit will modulate the IGV's and fuel flow as needed to match CTG exhaust temperature to the reference value. The reference value is typically supplied by your DCS. While the unit is operating in TM you are not able to control the load of the turbine. Fuel and IGV's will be used to control exhaust temperature and actual MWatt output is just along for the ride. Typically the unit will not be in emission compliance while using TM as the load is too low to get the unit in low emissions mode of the DLN system. I hope this helps and is part of what you are looking for.
Activation of TM (Temperature Matching) is done with the unit online and the generator breaker closed. Usually load must be raised up so that TNR (Turbine Speed Reference) is within a particular window. I would have to see your application code to provide a specific value but your graphics appear to have some indication that will change color once the permissive is met. Once TM is activated the unit will modulate the IGV's and fuel flow as needed to match CTG exhaust temperature to the reference value. The reference value is typically supplied by your DCS. While the unit is operating in TM you are not able to control the load of the turbine. Fuel and IGV's will be used to control exhaust temperature and actual MWatt output is just along for the ride. Typically the unit will not be in emission compliance while using TM as the load is too low to get the unit in low emissions mode of the DLN system. I hope this helps and is part of what you are looking for.
ControlEng99,
The topic of temperature matching of GE steam turbines using the gas turbine exhaust temperature has been covered in some pretty good detail in the past on Control.com.
The most common issue with this technique is that there is usually ”tuning” of the parameters required which is never fully done during commissioning. AND, the instructions for using the scheme are usually non-existent and even commissioning personnel don't understand it or know how to use it.
Usually, the temp matching signal for the GT control system comes from the plant DCS, and that causes problems when NOBODY understands how the scheme works. The DCS people say their equipment is working fine and it's the GT control system that's at fault. And the GT control system people say their system is working fine, but the signal from the DCS is not correct. SOMEBODY needs to dig in and understand the entire system--and the Operations Department (Managers and Operators) need to understand how the system works and when it should be used.
So, everybody needs to work together to understand how the system works, how to tune it, and when to use it. Unfortunately, most plants want or need to get to middle- or higher loads fast and don't understand that the GT can't do that AND limit exhaust temperature at the same time, especially when the GT has DLN combustors.
Unfortunately, this all has to happen at site--and multiple disciplines need to work together to solve the issue because every site's perversion of temp matching is not the same.
As has been suggested, it's best to locate the GT OEMs Control Specification document and start there (usually Sect. 03 or -06, but if GE Belfort is involved it could be anywhere.
Wish the news were better.
Best of luck.
The topic of temperature matching of GE steam turbines using the gas turbine exhaust temperature has been covered in some pretty good detail in the past on Control.com.
The most common issue with this technique is that there is usually ”tuning” of the parameters required which is never fully done during commissioning. AND, the instructions for using the scheme are usually non-existent and even commissioning personnel don't understand it or know how to use it.
Usually, the temp matching signal for the GT control system comes from the plant DCS, and that causes problems when NOBODY understands how the scheme works. The DCS people say their equipment is working fine and it's the GT control system that's at fault. And the GT control system people say their system is working fine, but the signal from the DCS is not correct. SOMEBODY needs to dig in and understand the entire system--and the Operations Department (Managers and Operators) need to understand how the system works and when it should be used.
So, everybody needs to work together to understand how the system works, how to tune it, and when to use it. Unfortunately, most plants want or need to get to middle- or higher loads fast and don't understand that the GT can't do that AND limit exhaust temperature at the same time, especially when the GT has DLN combustors.
Unfortunately, this all has to happen at site--and multiple disciplines need to work together to solve the issue because every site's perversion of temp matching is not the same.
As has been suggested, it's best to locate the GT OEMs Control Specification document and start there (usually Sect. 03 or -06, but if GE Belfort is involved it could be anywhere.
Wish the news were better.
Best of luck.
ControlEng999,
Temp matching would be useless and unnecessary for a simple cycle gas turbine.
Temp matching is used to control exhaust temperature to limit steam temperature in an HRSG in order to help with starting-up the steam turbine faster. UNFORTUNATELY, this scheme is highly misunderstood and because the temperature matching signal often comes from the plant DCS to the GT control system and it is usually "biased" (has an added amount of temperature signal, or a subtracted amount of temperature signal (say 40 deg F, or some similar value)) it can be elusive to tune (adjust the amount of bias) to get it to work correctly.
AND, as was said earlier--to limit exhaust temperature during loading means that gas turbine LOAD has to also be limited during loading, which doesn't fit with many plant operation practices (especially when the GT has a DLN combustion system).
There's no simple or easy answer to how temp matching works at the site you are working at. You need to get multiple groups (disciplines) to work together to understand how the temp matching signal is being generated, where it's coming from, and if it is appropriate.
ANOTHER thing to consider is that temp matching is typically designed for cold starts--when it's necessary to try to get steam temperature to not be too high in order to help with getting the steam turbine on line quicker. SO, that means that if the steam turbine is warm or hot when being started (and the steam piping is warm or hot) that temp matching may not be necessary.
It's a balancing act (as many things in the plant, and life) are. It's not a simple, always use it or only use when [this] or [that].
This is one of those automation things that is a GREAT idea, but in practice, it doesn't always work well--especially in the early stages of a plant's operation--until people understand it and know how to use it. It's intended to take some of the manual control functions out of the hands of operators, but in reality, it really means the operators need to understand how it works and how and when to use it, and when not to, as well.
Automation can be a great thing--but it has a long, Long, LONG ways to go in a modern combined cycle power plant (contrary to the wishes and promises of some OEMs and automation vendors). Tuning and understanding are key at this point in many so-called "automation" things--especially when using one piece of equipment to "help" another.
That's all I can add to this. You need to work with the equipment suppliers, the plant design engineers (who may or may not know what they were doing in some parts of the world), and the Operations Department, the Instrumentation & Controls department, and the DCS comissioning "team."
Best of luck!
Temp matching would be useless and unnecessary for a simple cycle gas turbine.
Temp matching is used to control exhaust temperature to limit steam temperature in an HRSG in order to help with starting-up the steam turbine faster. UNFORTUNATELY, this scheme is highly misunderstood and because the temperature matching signal often comes from the plant DCS to the GT control system and it is usually "biased" (has an added amount of temperature signal, or a subtracted amount of temperature signal (say 40 deg F, or some similar value)) it can be elusive to tune (adjust the amount of bias) to get it to work correctly.
AND, as was said earlier--to limit exhaust temperature during loading means that gas turbine LOAD has to also be limited during loading, which doesn't fit with many plant operation practices (especially when the GT has a DLN combustion system).
There's no simple or easy answer to how temp matching works at the site you are working at. You need to get multiple groups (disciplines) to work together to understand how the temp matching signal is being generated, where it's coming from, and if it is appropriate.
ANOTHER thing to consider is that temp matching is typically designed for cold starts--when it's necessary to try to get steam temperature to not be too high in order to help with getting the steam turbine on line quicker. SO, that means that if the steam turbine is warm or hot when being started (and the steam piping is warm or hot) that temp matching may not be necessary.
It's a balancing act (as many things in the plant, and life) are. It's not a simple, always use it or only use when [this] or [that].
This is one of those automation things that is a GREAT idea, but in practice, it doesn't always work well--especially in the early stages of a plant's operation--until people understand it and know how to use it. It's intended to take some of the manual control functions out of the hands of operators, but in reality, it really means the operators need to understand how it works and how and when to use it, and when not to, as well.
Automation can be a great thing--but it has a long, Long, LONG ways to go in a modern combined cycle power plant (contrary to the wishes and promises of some OEMs and automation vendors). Tuning and understanding are key at this point in many so-called "automation" things--especially when using one piece of equipment to "help" another.
That's all I can add to this. You need to work with the equipment suppliers, the plant design engineers (who may or may not know what they were doing in some parts of the world), and the Operations Department, the Instrumentation & Controls department, and the DCS comissioning "team."
Best of luck!
CSA great thanks to you, yeah, you are right, that every site is not the same like another one, there is only GE engineering support which can give detailed information and explanation about this function, unfortunately, because during commissioning period even control TA don't know all at site, however he or she is representative GE on site!
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