Mark V Flame Detection and Cimplicity

In mark v tmr system there are four flame detection signals 28 fd-a, b, c, d. While troubleshooting i discovered that there was no 335vdc voltage from the qd core on terminals for 28fd-d. I tested the 28fd-e. it had voltage and i connected the 28fd-d wires to the new terminals(28fd e). When the unit fired the 28fdd didnt register flame, but when i used prevote data display i could see 28fd-e registering flame. My question is, how can i to config the cimplicity to show 28fd-e on the flame detection page?
 
In mark v tmr system there are four flame detection signals 28 fd-a, b, c, d. While troubleshooting i discovered that there was no 335vdc voltage from the qd core on terminals for 28fd-d, i tested the 28fd-e , it had voltage and i connected the 28fd-d wires to the new terminals(28fd e). When the unit fired the 28fdd didnt register flame but when i used prevote data display i could see 28fd-e registering flame. My question is, how can i to config the cimplicity to show 28fd-e on the flame detection page?
Hello ALL,

Cheedee,


Can you precise frame type of this unit???

What kind of troubleshooting are you referring ( you stated while troubleshooting ...)in your post?

Did all the flame detector /tracker/scanner displaying was correct before ?
By reading your post , we could understand that commissioning was not done correctly ...( as you stated that one flame detector is not showing any "value".... is that the correct?

Configuring Cimplicity, is quite a important and special, task to achieve ( for many reasons like safety first!).

You asking to "show 28fd-e on the flame detection page..." , is that displaying was ok before that troubleshooting?

By saying that , one could understand that displaying was not ever ok before and now???

It could be good to share some screens views, for better idea of what is going on with flame detection.



How did you operate this unit till now ,??, Without one flame detector ??? is that correct?

Many questions can be posted, but we must wait from your answers to these first questions/comments.


Before to go further on investigation, and other documentations /manuals referring, readings we should collect more details on that issue .


Here some quotes from MarkV manual:
The Mark V <P> core contains three independent, identical TCEA cards (<X>, <Y>, and <Z>) that have their own
processors and power supplies. The power supplies provide the 335 V dc excitation current for the detectors as well as the
control power for the card. Eight UV flame detectors can be connected to the <P> core terminal boards. Each detector is
then internally parallel wired to each of the three cards. This redundancy exists in both the Mark V TMR and Simplex
systems (Simplex applications also have TMR emergency tripping, therefore, all Mark V systems will have three cards).
This design avoids the need for interposing transducers and separate 335 V excitation supplies.
The flame detection takes place in the <P> core and sends the information to the control processors (<R>, <S>, <T>). The
CSP determines if and when to trip the PTRs. See the CSP and turbine vendor documentation for details.

Is that the case on your control system, as you mentioned "QD core" in your post.
Can you confirm ?


Hope this can help,

Controls Guy25.
 
Cheedee,
To change a value on a CIMPLICITY display one uses a program called CIMVIEW.EXE. But, editing CIMPLICITY displays is not easy or straightforward, nor is it well documented. GE has used many different schemes over decades for creating CIMPLICITY displays, and didn't properly document ANY of them. One of the most common, and difficult to understand, schemes involved the use of Frame Containers--which is NOT something which can be explained easily or quickly on a World Wide Web forum like Control.com.
Congratulations for finding a failed flame detector input and moving a working flame detector to a ”spare” flame detector input. That is not an easy task in itself. BUT, editing CIMPLICITY displays, while it is easy once someone shows you how to do it on the GE Mark V HMI at your site, is virtually impossible to explain in writing. It really has to be done sitting together in front of the HMI, because it can be so very difficult to ”dig down” into the many possible nested configurations to find and change what you have already figured out is probably one alpha character, and then ”back out” of the nested configurations while saving the change without corrupting the CIMPLICITY display definition file, sometimes very badly.
If you persevere in this endeavour, I VERY STRONGLY RECOMMEND making a backup of the entire CIMPLICITY SCREENS folder/directory before you even try opening the CIMPLICITY display file(s) using CIMVIEW. You'll be most glad you did!!!
I wish the news was better, but, again, without a LOT of back and forth on this thread and probably only if you could post the relevant CIMPLICITY display file to this thread it would take a long time to teach you how to do this. I suspect, however, based on your success in finding the failed flame detector input channel (which probably took you a good deal of time and effort) that you will persist and probably even succeed--but you should not start without making a backup of the SCREENS folder/directory first.
Best of luck! Please write back to let us know how you fare. If you want to ask questions about what you encounter as you start digging into the CIMPLICITY display file(s) using CIMVIEW, post them to this thread, and attach the relevant CIMPLICITY display file to this thread. You can also post screen captures of things you find as you dive deeper into the nested configurations for help in understanding what you are seeing.
Finally, CIMPLICITY (CIMVIEW in this case) does have some pretty good Help files and even some tutorials. Be prepared to spend a LOT more time on this part of your ''fix” than you spent on researching and finding the failed flame detector input channel and moving the working flame detector to a spare input channel! But, again you seem to be motivated and enterprising and this is not impossible, but I guarantee you it will not be easy. (Unless you are EXTREMELY lucky and you have an early GE Mark V HMI that doesn't use Frame Containers and doesn't have a lot of nested configurations or templates!)
Best of luck! But I think you will succeed, and I hope you write back to let us know how you fare!!!
 
Hello ALL,

Cheedee,


Can you precise frame type of this unit???

What kind of troubleshooting are you referring ( you stated while troubleshooting ...)in your post?

Did all the flame detector /tracker/scanner displaying was correct before ?
By reading your post , we could understand that commissioning was not done correctly ...( as you stated that one flame detector is not showing any "value".... is that the correct?

Configuring Cimplicity, is quite a important and special, task to achieve ( for many reasons like safety first!).

You asking to "show 28fd-e on the flame detection page..." , is that displaying was ok before that troubleshooting?

By saying that , one could understand that displaying was not ever ok before and now???

It could be good to share some screens views, for better idea of what is going on with flame detection.



How did you operate this unit till now ,??, Without one flame detector ??? is that correct?

Many questions can be posted, but we must wait from your answers to these first questions/comments.


Before to go further on investigation, and other documentations /manuals referring, readings we should collect more details on that issue .


Here some quotes from MarkV manual:
The Mark V <P> core contains three independent, identical TCEA cards (<X>, <Y>, and <Z>) that have their own
processors and power supplies. The power supplies provide the 335 V dc excitation current for the detectors as well as the
control power for the card. Eight UV flame detectors can be connected to the <P> core terminal boards. Each detector is
then internally parallel wired to each of the three cards. This redundancy exists in both the Mark V TMR and Simplex
systems (Simplex applications also have TMR emergency tripping, therefore, all Mark V systems will have three cards).
This design avoids the need for interposing transducers and separate 335 V excitation supplies.
The flame detection takes place in the <P> core and sends the information to the control processors (<R>, <S>, <T>). The
CSP determines if and when to trip the PTRs. See the CSP and turbine vendor documentation for details.

Is that the case on your control system, as you mentioned "QD core" in your post.
Can you confirm ?


Hope this can help,

Controls Guy25.
To answer your question;
The unit is a Frame 5 -MS5001PA
I was Troubleshooting why the 28FD-D didn't have 335Vdc are the marshaling cabinet
The 28FD-E was not used initially (as you can see from the FD page)e, I assumed it was added as an extra signal, because the unit has 4 FDs(28FD-A-D, but in the prevote and MarkV studio you will see signals from 28FD E-H..

Yes,, It was <QD> core was a mistake, <P> is the termination of the flame detectors
 

Attachments

Rules of Cimplicity. 1. ALWAYS work on a copy of the original file till you are sure the modified screen works properly. 2. NEVER EVER ungroup anything.
Thank you very much for the step by step instructions! You really got what I had in mind to do. But after doing the modifications it didn't work, I have uploaded pictures on the progress
 

Attachments

To answer your question;
The unit is a Frame 5 -MS5001PA
I was Troubleshooting why the 28FD-D didn't have 335Vdc are the marshaling cabinet
The 28FD-E was not used initially (as you can see from the FD page)e, I assumed it was added as an extra signal, because the unit has 4 FDs(28FD-A-D, but in the prevote and MarkV studio you will see signals from 28FD E-H..

Yes,, It was <QD> core was a mistake, <P> is the termination of the flame detectors
Thank you for your answers.
I was sure that QD core was not involved in Flamed detection .

Controls Guy25.
 
We come to Control.com for answers to questions like this for the simple reason that GE didn't document things properly, not in the beginning, not when they changed, basically, just never. And the fact that adding the signal to Workbench was forgotten in the original write-up is proof of how these things have to be pulled from the depths of memory.

Are they hard? Not really. Are they documented for ease of reference and use? Not. At. All. Does that make it simple or easy? Methinks Curious_One got very, Very, VERY lucky with this one. What if this had been CIMPLICITY 8 with ToolboxST? It would have been several more steps, and likely one or two not recalled from the get-go.

That's why we come to Control.com. Eventually, most of the time, the right information comes up. AND, we get feedback from original posters and others who find the information helpful and useful (or not as the case may be). But, it's the feedback that helps makes the information really valuable.

440 pages of CIMEDIT instructions. It would take a good deal of time to find the steps Curious_One took a couple of days to recall. From memory.
 
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