Mark V persistent diagnostic alarms

A

Thread Starter

AZIR

<p>In our GE Gas Turbine Mark V TMR system, the following Diagnostic Alarms are persisting. Could anyone please guide me to locate where is the problem? I understand these alarms are from P-Core <Y> for S-Core controller.

<pre>
C 2355 Voter Mismatch (S) L28FDD
C 2362 Voter Mismatch (S) L52B_SEL
C 3799 Voter Mismatch (S) SFL1
C 2352 Voter Mismatch (S) L28FDA
C 2354 Voter Mismatch (S) L28FDC
C 2353 Voter Mismatch (S) L28FDB
C 2377 Voter Mismatch (S) L4PTR2_FB
C 3795 Voter Mismatch (S) TNH_OS
R 1697 TCE1 TMR check trouble, ETR2
R 1696 TCE1 TMR check trouble, ETR1
C 2375 Voter Mismatch (S) L4ETR2
C 2374 Voter Mismatch (S) L4ETR1
T 1697 TCE1 TMR check trouble, ETR2
T 1696 TCE1 TMR check trouble, ETR1
C 3798 Voter Mismatch (S) SFDIFF1
C 3797 Voter Mismatch (S) SSDIFF1
C 2370 Voter Mismatch (S) L30AS3
C 2369 Voter Mismatch (S) L30AS2
C 2368 Voter Mismatch (S) L30AS1
C 2366 Voter Mismatch (S) L14L_ZE
C 2364 Voter Mismatch (S) L12L_P
C 2363 Voter Mismatch (S) L12H_P
C 2361 Voter Mismatch (S) L4_FB
C 2360 Voter Mismatch (S) L5E_TCEA
</pre>
 
What have you done to try to troubleshoot the problem?

Have you looked at any of the signals in the Prevote Data Display?

When do these alarms occur? During starting? If so, when? At breaker closure? When the unit is on line? Is the unit a generator drive or a mechanical drive? What kind of turbine is it?
 
Still, I am yet to change any modules etc. The Prevote display shows that different S core than that of R and T core. i.e., if R and T are 1 then S is zero.

These alarms appear when the conditions occur. for example, the L28FDs appears when flame conditions are satisfied and resets on unit shutdown.

And few alarms are persisting always.
It is a GE Frame 7EA machine.

Regards
 
Which values in <S> are different from <R> and <T>? Of course, if <S> thinks the unit should be tripped and <R> and <T> don't then it will have different values that <R> and <T>, which is kind of what these alarms are telling you. Some input to <S> is causing <S> to believe that the unit should be tripped. If <S> thinks the unit should be tripped and it sees flame, that's also a problem. Without good data, there's not much we can do to help you.

If you want real help with these alarms via this forum, you are going to have to provide more details. Which alarms are persistent? What are the data values when the alarms are annunciated?

I'm not really clear what you mean by alarms appear when conditions occur and the L28FDs appear when flame conditions are satisfied. Are you trying to say that the L28FD voting mismatches occur when flame is established during starting and then when the unit is shutdown the alarms clear? If so, this is a pretty big clue to the problem! Loss of flame indication to any processor is a pretty big problem.

Have you looked at the cables in the <P> core--the ones that connect the PTBA terminal board to the TCEB and the TCEAs? Are they all inserted correctly? Are the LEDs on the TCEA cards in the <P> core all flashing the same sequences, or does <Y> flash a different sequence than <X> and <Z>? You can see how the cables interconnect the components by looking at the Signal Flow Diagrams in Appendix D of the Mark V Application Manual, GEH-6195.

These types of problems can sometimes be caused by problems with the ribbon cable connectors/pins becoming "corroded" and can be corrected by the application of some conductive grease on the connectors. There are usually tubes of conductive grease provided in the boxes with spare Mark V cards.

I really think you need to have someone knowledgeable in Mark V troubleshooting visit the site and help analyze and resolve the situation. Many times, there's no need to replace components (actaully, there's an awful lot of unnecessary card-swapping and servo replacement going on all the time around the world!).
 
Mr AZIR,
We came across the same problem in one of the 9E units. same set of alarms what you had posted are existing in the system.How did you solve your problem?.Could you please tell me.

Another observation is, TCE1 card in <s> was found to be in A2 state.I believe that this card is the TCEA card in <y> in P core.

Did you replace the same card or something else?
Unit is running.

Thanks and regards
ankarao
 
Dear All,

We have experienced the following diagnostic alarm on 29-June-2012 while GT unit is running.<pre>
C 3795 Voter Mismatch (S) TNH_OS
R 1697 TCE1 TMR check trouble,ETR2
R 1696 TCE1 TMR check trouble, ETR1
C 2375 Voter Mismatch (S) L4ETR2
C 2374 Voter Mismatch (S) L4ETR1
T 1697 TCE1 TMR check trouble, ETR2
T 1696 TCE1 TMR check trouble, ETR1</pre>
for more alarms and pre-vote data please view the below link

http://www.4shared.com/file/4-iuZh5L/MK_V_diagnostic_alarm.html

We have replaced TCEA (Y) on 02-July-2012 but the following alarms are still persisting.

So in the next available chance we have planned to check continuity between the "JL" cables and to replace TCTG.

Please share your opinion and experience.

take care
G.Rajesh
 
J
Dear G.Rajesh,

If you are having troubleshooting or performance issues on your GE Mark series control, you can receive free support at GE's Controls Connect internet portal.

If you are a turbine operator Controls Connect gives you access to our knowledge database which has an advanced search engine for finding knowledge articles, manuals, application guides, TILs, white papers, etc. We also provide phone/email support from our experienced technical support team. This is all a free service.

In addition, we are launching a free LIFECYCLE WEBINAR series that is available to Controls Connect users. I have attached a link to the webinar invitation if you are interested. The series will cover multiple topics addressing Mark V, VI and VIe and include multiple options for support well past 2015. The title of the Webinar Series is “Discover the Cure for Obsolescence”. Hopefully, you will find it valuable. http://geglobal.informz.net/geglobal/archives/archive_2468882.html

CONTROLS CONNECT NOTE: If you have a GE SSO#/Login and are a GE turbine operator, business associate or EPC firm, please send me an email at [email protected] with the subject "Controls Connect Access" and include your SSO#, Name and Company. Note that we do not accept generic email addresses (e.g. @yahoo, @hotmail, @gmail, etc). Company based email addresses are required for security reasons. Your registration will take approximately 3 days. If you do not have a GE SSO# you can register at http://site.ge-energy.com/online_tools/controls_connect.htm or just perform a Google search on "Controls Connect". Just click on the register button to start the process. Registration forms should require less than 5 minutes to complete. If you have any questions feel free to contact me at [email protected]
I am the Product Line Leader at GE Measurement and Controls.
 
B

Bob Johnston

If you are the Product Line Leader for GE, why don't you post the answer here so we all can see??
 
G.Rajesh,

My virus protection software is preventing me from downloading the file. I'm going to presume there is a Process Alarm that indicates there is a disagreement between the primary speed pick-up for <S> and the overspeed speed pick-up feedback for <S> based on the first alarm in your list.

Have you used PreVote Data Display to look at the overspeed signals (TNH_OS) for <R> (<X>), <S> (<Y>), and <T> (<Z>)? If so, what are the values for the three signals?

What are the values for the primary speed signals (TNH) for <R>, <S>, and <T>?

Have you used a frequency counter to measure the speed feedback at <P> PTBA-5 and -6, and compare it to the speed feedback at PTBA-1 & -2 and PTBA-9 & -10?

Because the alarms are telling you that for some reason the TCEA card in Loc. 3, also known as <Y> and associated with <S>, doesn't like the speed signal it's seeing and so it trying to trip the turbine. Replacing the card with a new one is likely to result in the same alarms--if the speed feedback (input) to the card is still bad.

Please write back to let us know what you find!
 
J
Bob, I appreciate your perspective. However, because of the broad scope of the technical questions in this forum, I cannot provide valid technical answers across all control and software issues for everything from HMIs to Exciters to Controls and all frame turbines. Therefore, I am suggesting that operators consider using the FREE GE internet portal to be sure they are receiving the most recent and comprehensive answers. There are issues that are being addressed around the globe by GE controls that feed into the database so it is constantly being updated. Controls Connect portal consolidates the accurate answers to these issues and also provides additional tech support through phone and email.
 
Does it mean that person who does not work currently on GE gas turbine would not be allow to have access to your free service? Even for learning or sharing knowledge. Just curious ...

Thanks anyway,
Cris
 
B

bob peterson

I believe he has stated repeatedly that only GE generator customers are welcome, and only those that they approve in advance.

--
Bob
 
Dear CSA & others,

thanks for the feedback.
> I'm going to presume there is a Process Alarm

No, there isn't process alarm about the diagnostic.

> Have you used PreVote Data Display to look at the overspeed signals (TNH_OS)
> for <R> (<X>), <S> (<Y>), and <T> (<Z>)? If so, what are the values for the three signals?

Yes, R-100.09, S-3.35 T-100.05 Votted-100.03 (it was given in the link)

> What are the values for the primary speed signals (TNH) for <R>, <S>, and <T>?

Yes, all are reading same approx. 100.02%.

> Have you used a frequency counter to measure the speed feedback at <P> PTBA-5
> and -6, and compare it to the speed feedback at PTBA-1 & -2 and PTBA-9 & -10?

We haven't measure, but if you can see the link, we have diagnostic alarm like "TCE1 flame detector #1,2,3&4 out of limits" (only for <S>) too.

If TTNH-2 fails, will it cause diagnostic alarm "flame detector #1,2,3 & 4 out of limits"?

So the problem could be somewhere common to both speed and flame measurement. (TECA had been replaced already-this is not new card).

What could be the other issue?

thanks for your support.

take care
G.Rajesh
 
G.Rajesh and others,

Sorry I couldn't get the download, but I trust my virus detector and want to keep my record of clean PCs. So, I'm not chancing the download at this time.

The reason I asked about checking the frequency at the PTBA is that would tell us if the speed pick-up is working or not. If there is a proper speed signal and the TCEA in Loc. 3 (<Y>) is not sensing the frequency then it's a safe bet that something is wrong with the cabling between the PTBA or some other issue, such as a bad ground connection on the TCEA.

Now, you mention an issue with another signal that is generated on the TCEA. So, it could be a problem with the cables connecting the TCEA card to the PTBA, or to the TCQC of <S>, or with the power supply to the TCEA.

There is also the TCTG card in Loc. 4 of <P>; it's connected to all three TCEA's. And, the three TCEAs are also connected to the TCEB in Loc. 2, if I remember correctly (I don't have any access to the Signal Flow Diagrams in Appendix D of the Mark V Application Manual, GEH-6195).

Again, I'm not going to download a file which my virus detector is warning me about so I can't see all the information and this is as much information as I can provide based on the information you have provided in this thread.

I will also say that a failed speed input should have no effect on the flame detector circuitry.
 
J
While I understand the communities desire to have All information be open, the Controls Connect portal provides proprietary and specific user data to support owners, operators and approved GE business associates. As a result, because of the sensitivity of the information we are only offering access to the previously identified groups. We are not trying to minimize the value of the current forums that exist but instead provide an alternative for those that are operating GE turbines to receive the latest and most up to date information to help them improve their reliability, performance and utilization. In addition, they will have direct access to our Technical Support staff.
 
>Thank CSA,
In mk5 tmr is there a list all diagnostic alarms? Where I find?

What does it mean the number 1 in the following alarms:

[tcd1 contact input #32failure]
[tcd1 contact input #31failure]
[tcd1 contact input #29failure]
[tcd1 contact input #20 failure]
[tcd1 contact input #19 failure]
[tcd1 contact input #18 failure]
[tcd1 contact input #17 failure]
[tcd1 contact input #16failure]
[tcd1 contact input #15 failure]
[tcd1 contact input #14 failure]
[tcd1 contact input #11 failure]
[tcd1 contact input #10 failure]
[tcd1 contact input #08 failure]
[tcd1 contact input #07 failure]
[tcd1 contact input #6 failure]
[tcd1 contact input #5 failure]
 
Each processor in the Mark V has an IONET to connect cards which are part of the processor but are located outside of the processor to the processor. In other words, not all of <R>'s complement of cards is located in <R>. Same for <S>, and <T>, and <C>.

There can be more than one TCDA card for <R>, <S>, and <T> if a <QD2> was provided, and the way GE (in their infinite wisdom) decided to differentiate between multiple TCDA cards in a panel was to use the cryptic tcd1 or tcd2 designation. I've tried to re-draw what is in the Mark V manuals in some form below; hopefully it answers more questions than it generates!

Mark V TMR IONET Routing<pre>
<R> <S> <T> <C>
TCQC TCQC TCQC TCCA
| | | |
| | | |
<P> <R> <P> <S> <P> <T> |
TCEA "tce1" TCEA "tce1" TCEA "tce1" |
Loc. 1 Loc. 3 Loc. 5 |
| | | |
| | | |
<QD1> <R> <QD1> <S> <QD1> <S> <CD> <C>
TCDA "tcd1" TCDA "tcd1" TCDA "tcd1" TCDA "tcd1"
Loc. 1 Loc. 2 Loc. 3 Loc. 1
| | |
| | |
<QD2> <R> <QD2> <S> <QD2> <T> (<QD2> is optional)
TCDA "tcd2" TCDA "tcd2" TCDA "tcd2"
Loc. 1 Loc. 2 Loc. 3</pre>
Every Mark V had a <QD1>. <R>'s tcd1 is the TCDA in Loc. 1 of <QD1>. <S>'s tcdq is the TCDA in Loc. 2 of <QD1>. <T>'s tcd1 in Loc. 3 of <QD1>.

If a Mark V includes a <QD2), <R> would have a tcd2 and it would be the TCDA in Loc.1 of <QD2>. <S> would have a tcd2 and it would be the TCDA in Loc. 2 of <QD2>. <T> would have a tcd2 and it would be the TCDA in Loc. 3 of <QD2>.

Some Mark Vs were shipped with files in F:\UNIT1 named HELP_QD.DAT and HELP_BD.DAT. These files were helpful in troubleshooting Diagnostic Alarms, but as with everything GE "documents", the files were developed for one or two versions of PROMs and were not updated for every version or combination of PROMs. So, they should be used a guides for troubleshooting, and if the files were NOT included with the original software provided with the Mark V, then they are most likely NOT specific to the machine.

As a former GE colleague used to say, whenever reading GE documentation it should be read for "intent" not "content". He also said, "Unless you wrote the document, or you personally know who wrote the document, it should be treated as a generic document and not as a site-specific document." In other words, read all GE documentation as generic information and compare what you read to the equipment at your site and develop your own understanding and documentation that is specific to your machine and the equipment provided with your machine. The ONLY document that matters is the one produced from the sequencing or application code that is running in the Speedtronic turbine control panel as that is site-specific.

Just as a point of information, the Mark V SIMPLEX IONET routing is as follows:<pre>
<R> <C>
TCQC TCCA
| |
| |
<P> <R> |
TCEA "tce1" |
Loc. 1 |
| |
| |
<P> <R> |
TCEA "tce2" |
Loc. 3 |
| |
| |
<P> <R> |
TCEA "tce3" |
Loc. 5 |
| |
| |
<QD1> <R> <CD> <C>
TCDA "tcd1" TCDA "tcd1"
Loc. 1 Loc. 1</pre>
 
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