Our machine has tripped several times with the message that all the cards have gone in the loss state. It seems a problem on the Ethernet network. when we remove the Ethernet cable on the controller, we get the same message. We have not restarted our machine and the fault is coming again after about 2-3 hrs. Has someone encounter this problem or can someone help us? Thks

rabacousnac [at] ctsav.intnet.mu

 

GE has discovered a problem with some of the network switches used in the IONET. Please contact GE on this matter.

 

otised,

If you have knowledge of some PSB or ETC or TIL related specifically to this problem, can you please provide the number(s)?

The original poster did not provide much in the way of information. I have seen this problem occur when there are serious grounds on the 125 VDC supply, or serious spikes on the 110/220 VAC supply through GE's <DACA> modules (which are <b>NOT</b> filters by any stretch of any imagination.

We don't know if this is occurring when some large contactors or relays are being energized or de-energized. We don't know what the loading is on the 28 VDC power supplies. We don't what other Diagnostic Alarms are present before the loss of communications with I/O Packs. We don't know if this is happening when the machine is running, or at rest, or on cool down, or during lightning strikes, or during frequency disturbances or during high voltage switching or anything. And, it's likely related to more than thing, not just one.

We just don't know enough. And, as is the case, every problem is "caused" by the control system. It's either not robust enough to withstand grounds or induced AC on the DC or bad battery chargers or inductive kicks from large DC coils or AC spikes from poor inverters or, the list can go on and on and on and on. I've even been to sites where there is coal dust all over the control system in a humid environment, and it's the control system's fault that chips are failing and fuses are blowing. It should be able to withstand poor environments and lack of maintenance and housekeeping. The old control system with virtually no electronics and lots of electromechanical relays could; why can't this new-fangled one hack it in this environment? The salesman said we could just plug it in and turn it on!

Please: If you know of specific GE documents and procedures about IONET switch problems, provide the information so the originator can contact GE with specific request for information and assistance.

If this is a Mark VIe, then it's likely under warranty (they are pretty new) and the originator should be contacting GE for assistance.

 

CSA:

Sorry, I don't have a TIL number. I recently retired from GE and no longer have access to the system. We replaced a number of the IONET Ethernet switches on a project I was involved with prior to retiring (still in commissioning phase). This only affects Mark VIe units, most of which should still be in warranty. IONET is not used on Mark VI.
Note, that it would take failure of two switches to cause a trip, since they are redundant.

 

otised,

Depending on the age of this installation, the originator should have received written documentation of any problems GE has identified via TIL or PSB or ETC (including those with solder joint problems). Many Customers choose, for whatever reason, not to have GE come and fix the problem and instead wait until a failure and then scream "Bloody murder!"

Not all installations have redundant IONETs.

Anyway, the originator should be contacting GE or the supplier of the equipment for assistance with this issue. Hopefully, more information will be available than was provided here.

 

You should have more then one cable plugged into R,S,T controllers you should have 3 cables one for each network. On TMR MK6e you have 3 networks R,S,T each is color coded Black,Red,Blue. Each cable should go to a switch that that branches out to the corresponding IO Packs. As otised said it would take 2 switches to fail. I would check how the network is connected. Sounds like you have a single point of failure how your network is currently.

 

we got same problems. you must contact Ge to install the last switches version.

 

>we got same problems. you must contact
>Ge to install the last switches version.

Can you tell us exactly what GE did to solve this problem. We are in contact with them but up to now the problem is not solved. Plz find below more info.:

Our Mark Vie panel is simplex. During commissioning, all the Ethernet switch N-tron 508TX were replaced due to untimely tripping.

Our controller has the nameplate: (CPCIR) Telkoor CPCI Pentair Warwick RI 42267 Made in USA GE Pin 336A4940CTP1.
Nameplate on the panel is
GE Energy Mark VIe Control Shop order no ZXV073 Mark VI Data Nameplate Req No 0000082985 Item no SD002 ML 3VZXV073LU002 Drawings Elementary 152B1481BE Outline 152B1481BO Layout 152B1481BL Power requirements 125 Vdc @ 10 A 240 Vac @ 7.5 A 50/60 Hz 120 Vac @ 15 A 50/60 Hz System Manual GEH-6421 Vol I & II (unit 1 Item no SD001, ML 3VZXV073LU001)


There are two supplies to our panel: 230 Vac and 115 Vac. There are 2 redundant power supply 28 Vdc and 24 Vdc in the panel. The 230 Vac supplies the controller. We have monitored the 230 vac & 28 V dc ; when the fault occurs, there is no fluctuation in the 28 Vdc or 230 Vac. The problem occurs both when our machine is synchronized with the grid and when it is not synchronized ie when it is on the turning gear.

Below is the remark from someone who is trying to help us:

“1. you do not have DACA installed in your unit and it does not run on 125V dc.

2. all the R I/O packs are connected to the NTRON switches and the S and T PPRO are connected directly to he controller. Therefore it is very clear that it not a problem with the I/O network since even the S and T PPRO packs are reporting problem.

3. From the controller event logs it is clear that the controller is rebooting, which could be due to the power supply interruptions or due to the controller itself rebooting due to some reason”

We have erased the compact flash in the controller and download again.

We do not have a spare controller.

 

>Can you tell us exactly what GE did to
>solve this problem. We are in contact
>with them but up to now the problem is
>not solved. Plz find below more info.:

The fix for the N-tron switches was to replace them. Since that has already been done, and per other information in your posting, I agree that the problem is unlikely to be related to the N-tron switch problem.

I am not familiar with the simplex Mark VIe architecture, so I can't offer anything more.

 

Dear CSA,

Can you give me your opinion following the tests we did :

Our Mark Vie panel is simplex. During commissioning, all the Ethernet switch N-tron 508TX were replaced due to untimely tripping.

Our controller has the nameplate: (CPCIR) Telkoor CPCI Pentair Warwick RI 42267 Made in USA GE Pin 336A4940CTP1.

Nameplate on the panel is GE Energy Mark VIe Control Shop order no ZXV073 Mark VI Data Nameplate Req No 0000082985 Item no SD002 ML 3VZXV073LU002 Drawings Elementary 152B1481BE Outline 152B1481BO Layout 152B1481BL Power requirements 125 Vdc @ 10 A 240 Vac @ 7.5 A 50/60 Hz 120 Vac @ 15 A 50/60 Hz System Manual GEH-6421 Vol I & II (unit 1 Item no SD001, ML 3VZXV073LU001)

There are two supplies to our panel: 230 Vac and 115 Vac. There are 2 redundant power supply 28 Vdc and 24 Vdc in the panel. The 230 Vac supplies the controller. We have monitored the 230 vac & 28 V dc ; when the fault occurs, there is no fluctuation in the 28 Vdc or 230 Vac. The problem occurs both when our machine is synchronized with the grid and when it is not synchronized ie when it is on the turning gear.

Below is the remark from someone who is trying to help us:

"1. you do not have DACA installed in your unit and it does not run on 125V dc.

2. all the R I/O packs are connected to the NTRON switches and the S and T PPRO are connected directly to he controller. Therefore it is very clear that it not a problem with the I/O network since even the S and T PPRO packs are reporting problem.

3. From the controller event logs it is clear that the controller is rebooting, which could be due to the power supply interruptions or due to the controller itself rebooting due to some reason"

We have erased the compact flash in the controller and download again.

We do not have a spare controller.

We have replaced the JPDM card and its IO pack. We have bypass the filter under the controller. We have supply the panel from a different source of 230 Vac. But the fault occurs again.

Rgds

 

Dear rab,

My opinion is the following:

1) You are suffering from a perspective that because you believe the IONET switches were replaced once for one reason that they may not be failing for another, separate reason. Or, even possibly the SAME reason. I've spoken with a former colleague and there was a problem with bad solder joints at one time. I think that took some time to be sorted out and confirmed, and it just might be the case that your unit received possibly defective replacements because the original cause wasn't known at the time. Now I don't know that for sure, and I'm pretty confident that you don't know that for sure, either.

2) You are not using all available "tools" for analyzing the problem. You have never reported how many or what Diagnostic Alarms are reported prior to and after these "trips", which aren't really being reported very well, either. Diagnostic Alarms are NOT to be ignored. Just because a lot of field services people leave Speedtronic installations with a horrendous amount of Diagnostic Alarms does not mean that every turbine has to run with tens or hundreds of Diagnostic Alarms! Shame on any organization for accepting lame excuses from commissioning people about why they can't clear all the Diagnostic Alarms! Every turbine/turbine control system should be turned over with virtually zero Diagnostic Alarms, or reasonable explanations for why the ones that aren't resolved can't be resolved or are being investigated.

But, you need to learn to monitor and investigate and resolve Diagnostic Alarms. My bet is that there is some kind of heartbeat problem or something similar that's being reported as a Diagnostic Alarm that you aren't bothering to pay attention to, either because there are too many Diagnostic Alarms and this is just one of (too) many, or you just aren't concerned about Diagnostic Alarms like many people, because "they won't trip the turbine" (or at least that's what the commissioning person said before he left tens or hundreds of Diagnostic Alarms when leaving the site).

The Mark VIe System Guide, GEH-6721, lists almost all Diagnostic Alarms for all the I/O Packs, along with a proposed corrective action; not like a lot of earlier Speedtronic products, this one has a little better documentation, which is improving all the time from what my colleague told me.

3) In speaking to my former colleague, it seems there has been a problem identified with certain versions of ToolboxST that can cause I/O Packs to freeze, and this is documented in a recently released TIL. As an owner/operator of a Mark VIe system, you should have been sent (by post or email) a copy of the TIL if your unit is possibly affected.

4) Lastly, it's pretty clear you need to get someone to site to help with this problem; someone that's knowledgeable with Mark VIe, ToolboxST, troubleshooting Diagnostic Alarms and using other GE software tools for accessing memory in the various I/O Packs and to help with understanding any Diagnostic Alarms which might be indicative of this problem and who can analyze your configuration and software/firmware set to see if it might need upgrading.

I have struggled with this response, and I don't mean to be harsh. But, if you're having a problem which is causing you to have unplanned forced outages, using this forum to help you troubleshoot your problem is not the proper course of action. There may even be other TILs or PSBs or notices about other IONET switch problems which may be applicable (I'm not saying there are or there aren't, just that there may be). You haven't mentioned that you know of any TILs which have been performed at your site.

As I said in my earlier post(s), when I have seen problems like this in the past grounds and/or power supply problems are usually at fault, in my experience. You say you don't use 125 VDC power for this system. I have seen some very poor quality AC provided for use for Speedtronic panels in recent years (from low quality or poorly maintained inverters) which caused a lot of problems. I haven't seen nearly 10% of all turbine problems, and probably haven't seen the one at your site from the sounds of it. I was only offering you my experience, which is all anyone can do on this site.

But, again, if you're having unplanned forced outages, get some knowledgeable help to site. If you aren't receiving proper notices from GE of TILs and PSBs and other notices, then make sure that are getting them in the future. And don't say it can't be the switches because they were already replaced. It's likely not the switches, but you haven't eliminated everything else yet.

Troubleshooting is a logical process of elimination; deciding the problem likely isn't this or that, and so you concentrate on other areas. But, when the other areas don't provide the desired results, you have to go back and work through all the areas you previously deemed weren't likely. They haven't been proven not to be the cause; they were just bypassed in an educated attempt at narrowing down the problem.

Keep an open mind when troubleshooting. And use all the available tools at your site.

You provided a lot of useful nameplate information (for someone who had access to GE systems and drawings which most of us here don't!), but when you contact GE or one of its packagers for assistance, be prepared to answer a lot more questions, like the version of ToolboxST in use at your site, the version of WorkstationST in use at your site, etc. These are important pieces of information which, if provided in your original request for assistance, may prove to be very helpful in obtaining a quick and proper response.

Good luck and let us know what you find to be the problem!

 

Dear CSA,

We replaced the controller on 14 dec and the machine is synchronised with the grid. Up to now the problem has not occurred again.

By the way, we are looking for a recorder which can record transients on 4-20 mA, 1ph 115, 230 Vac, 3ph up to 690 Vac. ie a general purpose recorder for troubleshooting which is accurate and at the same time has a good storage memory. Can you advise something? Thks in advance

Rgds,
rab

 

rab,

Congratulations on getting the unit back on line!

Thanks for the feedback! "Feedback is the most important contribution!" (c) and is what makes this forum as valuable as it is to the Speedtronic community.

I don't know of any specific recorders, but if you do a web search you will probably find any number of suitable recorders, and most will probably require some kind of input "converter" to be able to handle the range or inputs you listed. If you could find a recorder that would store data on a rolling basis and then stop and capture, say, 4 hours worth of relatively high-speed data on some event (turbine trip or contact opening/closure), that would probably best suit your needs in the long-term.

 

Can you send Mark-VIe power cable report and IO Report to [email protected] for review and posting further feedback?.

Muralidhara