I'm Zihni

I have many question.. If you answer I will be happy..

1) on Main Display located AUTO Target is not yellow. It is black. What could be?

2) We operate our GTs on RMC mode (L83RMC). But We don't pass on the RMC mode. When we check I saw that on the RMC screen located LRMC_CAL and LRMC_PERM targets are red. In fact They should be green. So, While RMC OFF, When we want to pass BASE LOAD but don't pass. What do need to do? If you give answer, I will be happy!.. Thank you..

 

Zihni, from Turkey.

Here at control.com we have no way of knowing anything about your site and the machine(s) (types of turbines--heavy duty or aeroderivative gas turbine; steam turbine; boiler feed pump turbine; generator- or mechanical drive; etc.), or the type of operator interface(s) (Mark V <I> or GE Mark V HMI (running MS-Windows and CIMPLICITY); etc.) unless you tell us.

I have only ever seen one turbine that used RMC control and that was called Reserve Margin Control. <b>In that case</b>, Reserve Margin Control was a feature, that when selected and enabled, would NOT allow the turbine to go to Base Load but would run the turbine at a small percentage just below Base Load. This allows the machine to pick up some load in the event of a frequency decrease (which the unit will not do if it's running at Base Load).

<b>Without being able to see the sequencing in the control panel(s) at your site</b> it's virtually impossible to say for sure exactly how the units operate. I'm not familiar with the specific red targets you described, but I can tell you that the Mark V Users Manual, GEH-5979, has a description of the various types of targets, and one of them is red--the immediate action target. Green targets are arm-execute targets that require confirmation before the action is taken/command is sent; red targets don't require confirmation, as soon as you click on a red target the action is taken/command sent.

If you need more information about the various types of targets and how they work, refer to the Users Manual.

I presume that if a target is black you have a GE Mark V HMI running CIMPLICITY and the usual cause of a target being black on a CIMPLICITY Display is the point being used for the feedback is not correct, or the target is not configured correctly.

I want to be very clear about the answer above: Without being able to see the sequencing in the Mark V(s) at your site we can't be certain exactly how your units operate.

The more information you can provide in your original post the quicker and more concise your response will be. While you may live with the units at your site and think that every Mark V is alike, or every Frame 5 is alike, or every LM2500 is alike. Far from it, there can be many subtle differences that mean a world of difference in the way similar machines operate.

Take some time, and use control.com's Search feature to search for information. Don't stop with one search; use different words and terms remembering that everyone doesn't use the same words and terms to describe the same problem or need. Use the Search feature's Help function to help narrow your search results.

It's great that you found this site. We have a saying here: 'Feedback is the most important contribution!'(c) Use the Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down icons in the upper left of the thread responses in addition to taking a couple of minutes to write a response to let others know if the information provided was helpful or not. As you read other threads, you should discover how helpful the feedback is. And remember: the more information you provide the more help you will receive and generally the responses will be faster, too.

Lastly, remember that when we respond to these posts we take into account the fact that others read them for information. Occasionally we provide lots of information that may seem excessive to you, or simplistic. It's just our way of trying to provide as much information to as many people as possible, using each request for an opportunity to do that.

 

Hi!

I'm Zihni.. Thank you very much for your answers..

Our site are Frame9E, MS9001E Gas Turbines and TMR Mark V <I> kontrol..

We operate Reserve Margin Control.Yes,it's true If the turbine control RMC ON mode, it doesn't select anything load type.Normal conditions when we want to pass RMC mode, We click on RMC ON target and we pass to RMC mode but Sometimes when we trip and restart to turbine, we don't pass to RMC mode. What can be?
Some rungs;<pre>
L83RMC L30F_TMP L83PK L83WW L43RMC
---I/I----I I---I I---I/I---I/I----I/I-----( )
L60GVMAX LRMC_CALCAN


L43RMC TD L43RMCZ
----I I---- 1 dk -----( )


L84MIXT LRMC_CALCAN
-----I I-------------------------( )
I
L83WW I
-----I I---
I
L3RMCDRIFT I
-----I I---


LRMC_CAL LRMC_CALCAN LRMCCALCANA
----I I----I I-----------------( )




L84MIXT L83RMC LCAN_RMC
-----I I--------I I-----------------( )
I I
L83WW I I LCAN_RMC ALM
-----I I--- ----( )
I
L3RMCDRIFT I
-----I I---
I
L43PFR_EN I
-----I/I---
I
L43RMC_EN I
-----I/I---



L43RMCZ L14HS LRMC_CALCAN LRMC_CAL
----I I----I I----------I/I----------( )
I
LRMC_CAL I
----I I--


L43RMCON_CPB LOAD_CLR L43RMC_EN
----I I-----I/I----I/I---I I----------( )
I L43RMCOFF_CPB L43PFR_EN
I
----I I--
L43RMC_EN

L4 L52ONLINE LRMC_CAL L43PFR_EN LRMC_PERM
---I I---I I---I/I---I I---I/I---I I------( )
L94X L83SCI_CMD</pre>

 

Zihni, from Turkey,

Mark Vs still using <I>s.

And the Mark Vs are apparently also running another purchased option known as PFR (GE's ill-named Primary Frequency Response--which is NOT the same as the rest of the world views primary frequency response!) and RMC (Reserve Margin Control).

I'm not exactly clear what you mean when you say you want to "pass RMC Mode". I'm presuming you mean you want to select RMC Mode and put the Mark V into RMC. Is that correct? Because from an earlier post I presumed it meant you wanted to cancel RMC mode and return to AUTO Mode. So, I'm a little confused about what you're trying to do when.

As for why the AUTO target goes "black" when RMC is enabled/active, I presume that was the programmer's method of making AUTO inaccessible, or of "hiding" the button so it couldn't be selected when RMC is enabled/active. But that's just an educated guess.

This is very convoluted sequencing, at least without being able to see all of the relevant sequencing. All of the rungs are not shown, but we can try to discern some things from what was provided.

I think the rungs you are most interested in understanding are L43RMC, L43RMC_EN, L43PFR_EN, and LRMC_PERM. I would presume you need all of these rungs to be a logic "1" in order to be able to select RMC and to enable/activate it.

In rung rung L43RMC_EN there is an "ON" command pushbutton and an "OFF" command pushbutton, L43RMCON_CPB and L43RMCOFF_CPB, respectively. Those should be targets on an <I> display for selecting "RMC ON" and "RMC OFF". So it would seem that as long as you met the other permissives in L43RMC_EN when you clicked on L43RMCON_CPB that L43RMC_EN would go to a logic "1" and that would at least start the process of enabling RMC and making it active.

From the information provided, it would appear that the unit would have to be at Base Load (NOT on Peak Load), the IGVs would have to be fully open, the generator breaker would have to be closed, Isochronous Speed Control would have to be INACTIVE, PFR (Primary Frequency Response) would have to be either available or active, and LRMC_CAL would have to be active. Not sure what the last two permissives above mean or accomplish, their functions are or would be an educated guess.

It's really difficult to troubleshoot or comment in a forum like this. We would also need to know what other Process Alarms were active when you were NOT able to select and enable RMC, and we don't' know that. Most operators just assume that if alarms are active but the unit isn't tripped then they should be able to operate the unit in any way they see fit, and that's just not true. You say RMC is normally active, and then something causes a unit to trip, and after the re-start it can't be enabled or selected. Well, there are some conditions which must be met--and apparently are met at some time (when it is selected and enabled/active before the trip!) and you need to know what those conditions and get to that point again to re-select and re-enable/re-activate RMC.

But there's too much information which isn't known. We'd need to be able to see displays and Control Constants and Alarm Logs and Trip Logs (Trip History Displays) to be able to make a definite comment.

I'd suggest getting someone from GE to help with the issues.

<b>OR</b>, avail yourself of the GE Controls Connect that's been made available by GE to owners/operators of GE-design heavy duty gas turbines. Here is thread with some information about the service/site:

http://www.control.com/thread/1321181738#1322758086

(remove any spaces inserted by the control.com software before pasting this URL into your preferred web browser address bar.)

[NOTE: SSO# refers to GE's Single Sign-On number and password. It's a "username and password" for accessing the GE system. If you don't have one, you can register for one per the instructions in the thread. If you're having trouble, contact Mr. Emery directly; I'm sure he'll be happy to help resolve any problems.]

 

Dear my friend..

Thank you for your answer
Excuse my English is not very good..

Firstly I mentioned AUTO problem is a different problem. It doesn't depend on RMC mode.

Second RMC mode responds to the low and high frequencies.You know that,while generator is running on Base Load, when decreased frequency of the bus,It can not be helped to bus, because it is not possible to increase the load. So, It used RMC mode. While this mode enable,Generator operates under 3% (or optional)Base Load. After start-up,If following conditions provided for 15dk;
FSR Temp. Control, IGV fully open and Base Load. RMC mode enable.RMC ON click and we passing to RMC mode but If such is not done then when we want to do, because of not able to select to BASE LOAD we aren't passing to RMC mode. BASE LOAD target is disable. Mark V is only permissing to oparate PRESEL LOAD. I want to found out that this state why could be?

Thank you for helping..

 

Zihni, from Turkey,

Your English skills are not bad; I'm just trying to be clear and be sure I understand.

Most importantly, we can't be of certain help unless we could see all of the sequencing in the Mark V. There are some other permissives (such as Water Wash not enabled (L83WW) and no mixed fuel operation (L84MIXT) that I didn't mention because I assumed (something I try VERY hard not to do, but I'm not always successful; sorry!) that you were operating on gas fuel or liquid fuel only and weren't trying to Water Wash the unit while it was running and trying to turn RMC ON ("pass" to RMC). Please correct me if I was wrong to assume those two things.

There's another "permissive" that I can't understand without being able to see all of the sequencing: LRMCDRIFT that could prevent you from selecting and enabling (turning ON) RMC.

But, that's why I asked about the Process Alarms that were annunciated when you were trying to select/enable RMC Mode but were unable to. There's that LCAN_RMC_ALM rung that is driving an alarm (I assume--there, I did it again, but that should be a safe assumption).

And there's another logic signal which plays into that rung, LRMCDRIFT, which we can't be sure about unless we could see all of the sequencing in the Mark V.

Finally, there's another logic, LOAD_CLR, that might be impacting the situation. But, without being able to see what drives that logic, we can't be certain.

As for the AUTO target being blacked-out, we'd have to see the animated display item list file and the sequencing to be certain. Either there's something wrong with the animated display item list file, or there's something wrong with the sequencing, <b>OR</b> I've made another assumption (sorry!).

I've assumed this problem has been happening for a lont time, but, I should have asked: When did this problem start? I presume since you have multiple units, you have multiple <I>s. Does this problem with the AUTO target happen on all the <I>s?

There's not too much we can do without being able to see the sequencing and the animated display item list file (isn't that a really long name for a display file?).

I'd like to tell you to get someone from GE to come out to help with the problem, but they're not really supporting any Mark V's with <I>s. That's kind of for a reason: the legacy ARCnet cards in the <I>s are <b>UN</b>available except from third-party vendors (either used or new, old stock). Please take this into consideration if it hasn't been done so already.

Having said that, there are other companies that do support Mark Vs still using <I>s running IDOS. Turbine Diagnostic Services (www.turbinedoctor.com) supports Mark Vs with <I>s running IDOS. I'm sure there are others.

But, think about those ARCnet cards.

 

Hi!
Thanks you for yours helps<pre>
L83AM
.................----------------------( )
. I
. I
. I
I
I
I
LCAN_RMC I
------I I---------


L83AM L83CAPCAN LOAD_CLR
-----I I------I/I---------------------( )
I
I
L94Z I
-----I/I------------


L60GVMAX L3RMCDCHK T.D
----I I---I I---I I---I I------1.5 sn------( )
L3TNH_LDSCHK L30F_TMP L3RMCLDDRIFT


L83RMC L3RMCDRIFT
-----I I-----I I----------------------( )
L3RMCLDDRIFT I
I L3RMCDRIFT_ALM
-------( )</pre>
I hope these helps.
There is also a my question. I want to learn about mask in Mark V. There is a hex number there. If you something know, Could you explain to me? Additionally CNT15? What these are?

 

Zihni, from Turkey,

Sorry; for me personally, I would need to see the entire F:\UNITn and PROM subdirectories, as well as the F:\RUNTIME directory, to see all the sequencing, BBLs, and animated display item list files.

And, even if I had all the files it would be approaching an effort that should be compensated.

Why don't you try the GE Controls Connect site? I'm sure you can email the directories and files to them (if they'll take the "case") and get some help that way. It's definitely worth a try.

If you do, please write back to let us know what you thought of the site and the assistance you received there.

I presume you are asking about masks for Command State Blocks? Because there are also inversion masks for discrete (contact) inputs. I think command state block masks have been discussed here on control.com before. Have you tried using 'Search' to find any relevant threads? They're rather difficult to explain, but they could be part of the reason you can't select AUTO.

Also in one of the appendices of the Mark V Application Manual is a section which attempts to explain many of the more generic blocks used in the Mark V; you may find the Command State Block there along with some possibly useful information.

I have to believe this worked at some point, and, in fact, you have said that you are, sometimes, able to select RMC Mode, but sometimes you are not. It seems the operators (and their supervisors?) don't really know what the required conditions are or can't logically work out what's required. It should be possible from analyzing *ALL* of the Mark V sequencing (not just bits and pieces) but it can be convoluted and time-consuming to do so.

And you are <b>STILL NOT</b> providing a list of the alarms present when you are NOT able to select RMC ON. I would suspect that almost any condition that would prevent selection of RMC ON would be accompanied by an alarm (Process Alarm).

As for "Mark V Maths", there is an appendix in the back of the Mark V Application Manual, GEH-6195, that describes how floating point math is applied in the Mark V.

Every signal in a Speedtronic turbine control panel has to have a "scale code" or "scale type" with some engineering units associated with it. CNT15 is "unitless" scale code/type used quite often for intermediate calculation values. It has a maximum and minimum value (depending on the PROMset revision, if I recall correctly), but it's usually just a "placeholder" for intermediate calculation or unitless values.