SRV not following TRIP,VPRO alarm: contact exitation voltage test failure

hello everywhere
I have a big problem in our turbine framme 5 MS5002C controled by MARK VI
when i start the machine,in firing i have the alarm-srv not following trip-
i checked all the cards,i was found a real alarm in VPRO module -code 40: contact exitation voltage failure-in the diagnostic to chech this alarm,its mean -loss of P125 voltage caused by disconnection of JH1 to TREG,or disconnect of JX1,JY1,JZ1 on TREG Tto J3 on VPRO- i checked it,i find 28V in this alimentation of JH1 and i checked the jumper JX1,JY1,JZ1 that it,s in good function.
Please can someone with experience about this problem help me out with the actual issue and how to solve it.
 
hello everywhere
I have a big problem in our turbine framme 5 MS5002C controled by MARK VI
when i start the machine,in firing i have the alarm-srv not following trip-
i checked all the cards,i was found a real alarm in VPRO module -code 40: contact exitation voltage failure-in the diagnostic to chech this alarm,its mean -loss of P125 voltage caused by disconnection of JH1 to TREG,or disconnect of JX1,JY1,JZ1 on TREG Tto J3 on VPRO- i checked it,i find 28V in this alimentation of JH1 and i checked the jumper JX1,JY1,JZ1 that it,s in good function.
Please can someone with experience about this problem help me out with the actual issue and how to solve it.
Hi

Are you sure ( can you confirm ) on J3 connection with JX1/JY1/JZ1...i see that they connected to J6 ( on MarkVI maunal)..

James
 
Actually JX1/JY1/JZ1 FROM TREG are indeed connected to J3
But thats different from TPRO as it is connected to J6 can you confirm...as there can be a misinterpretation..
 
ousamma sel,

When did this problem start? After a maintenance outage?

Is the Mark* a TMR or SIMPLEX panel?

What does the SRV actually do when commanded to open? Does it open to, say, 5%, or to 50%, or to 100%? Or does it not open at all?

What is the gas fuel supply pressure to the SRV before the turbine is STARTed? What is the gas fuel supply pressure when the SRV opens?

What is the P2 pressure reference during firing (usually signal name FPRG)?

What is the actual P2 pressure during firing (usually signal name FPG2)?

Has anyone observed the gas fuel pressure gauges during firing and recorded the pressures during firing?

Have you checked the positions of the P2 pressure transmitter there-way valves to make sure they are in the RUN position and not in the VENT position?

Can you use Trend Recorder to capture the values of speed (TNHor TNH1), P2 pressure reference (FPRG),actual P2 pressure (FPG2, or sometimes a96_fpg2), and gas fuel supply pressure (FPG1, or sometimes FPG3, or sometimes a96_fpg1 or a96_fpg3), and SRV position (FSGR)?

This process alarm can mean either the SRV is not opening or it is opening too far. If it’s not opening it could be lack of either trip oil and/or hydraulic oil pressure, or lack of gas fuel supply pressure. It could be the P2 pressure transmitter three-way valves are in the wrong position(s). It could mean the SRV LVDTs were incorrectly calibrated recently. It could mean the 125VDC to the 20FG-1 solenoid is not getting through the TREG or the TRPG.

Someone needs to actually observe the SRV during firing to determine if if it opening at all or if it is opening excessively. If it’s not opening at all it’s probably a problem with 20FG-1 not getting the full 125 VDC or it is sticking or has failed. If the SRV is opening excessively then the P2 pressure transmitter feedback is not getting to the Mark* VI.

It would also be very helpful to know ALL the alarms (Process AND Diagnostic) present before the START is initiated, during purging, and when the trip occurs? Also, is there a 125 VDC Battery Ground alarm present all the time or intermittently?

And if you can run Trend Recorder to capture the requested data and post a screenshot of the START and trip that would be great.
 
ousamma sel,

When did this problem start? After a maintenance outage?

Is the Mark* a TMR or SIMPLEX panel?

What does the SRV actually do when commanded to open? Does it open to, say, 5%, or to 50%, or to 100%? Or does it not open at all?

What is the gas fuel supply pressure to the SRV before the turbine is STARTed? What is the gas fuel supply pressure when the SRV opens?

What is the P2 pressure reference during firing (usually signal name FPRG)?

What is the actual P2 pressure during firing (usually signal name FPG2)?

Has anyone observed the gas fuel pressure gauges during firing and recorded the pressures during firing?

Have you checked the positions of the P2 pressure transmitter there-way valves to make sure they are in the RUN position and not in the VENT position?

Can you use Trend Recorder to capture the values of speed (TNHor TNH1), P2 pressure reference (FPRG),actual P2 pressure (FPG2, or sometimes a96_fpg2), and gas fuel supply pressure (FPG1, or sometimes FPG3, or sometimes a96_fpg1 or a96_fpg3), and SRV position (FSGR)?

This process alarm can mean either the SRV is not opening or it is opening too far. If it’s not opening it could be lack of either trip oil and/or hydraulic oil pressure, or lack of gas fuel supply pressure. It could be the P2 pressure transmitter three-way valves are in the wrong position(s). It could mean the SRV LVDTs were incorrectly calibrated recently. It could mean the 125VDC to the 20FG-1 solenoid is not getting through the TREG or the TRPG.

Someone needs to actually observe the SRV during firing to determine if if it opening at all or if it is opening excessively. If it’s not opening at all it’s probably a problem with 20FG-1 not getting the full 125 VDC or it is sticking or has failed. If the SRV is opening excessively then the P2 pressure transmitter feedback is not getting to the Mark* VI.

It would also be very helpful to know ALL the alarms (Process AND Diagnostic) present before the START is initiated, during purging, and when the trip occurs? Also, is there a 125 VDC Battery Ground alarm present all the time or intermittently?

And if you can run Trend Recorder to capture the requested data and post a screenshot of the START and trip that would be great.
dear CSA
thank for your interesting
at first,we have TMR panel
i checked all what you talking about
when i start the machine,after cranking,in firing phase,the SRV didnt open at all,it trip the machine with alarm: srv not following trip
i checked the current of the servovalve(moog),its generate normaly,and when i do the SRV calibrate,its gone correctly and follow the command,i think that the 125VDC to the 20FG-1 solenoid is not getting through the TREG or the TRPG.cause the diagnostic on the VPRO,generate this description: contact exitation voltage test failure,status of this alarm is 1(real)
i have changed the card TREG,there was no change
 
dear CSA
thank for your interesting
at first,we have TMR panel
i checked all what you talking about
when i start the machine,after cranking,in firing phase,the SRV didnt open at all,it trip the machine with alarm: srv not following trip
i checked the current of the servovalve(moog),its generate normaly,and when i do the SRV calibrate,its gone correctly and follow the command,i think that the 125VDC to the 20FG-1 solenoid is not getting through the TREG or the TRPG.cause the diagnostic on the VPRO,generate this description: contact exitation voltage test failure,status of this alarm is 1(real)
i have changed the card TREG,there was no change
the problem came while the machine in operation,after analysing the triplog,there was a shutdown,and after that,the machine cant firing cause the SRV didnt open at all
 
oussama el,

I MISTAKENLY POSTED THIS IN THIS THREAD; IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN POSTED IN ANOTHER THREAD WHICH IS ACTIVE AT THE SAME TIME. HOWEVER, SOME OF THE INFORMATION HERE YOU MAY FIND HELPFUL SO I'M NOT GOING TO REMOVE IT. (I have copied this information to the appropriate thread; my sincere apologies for any confusion.)

To START a turbine with a TMR (Triple Modular Redundant) Mark VI it is necessary for ALL processors--and the protective processors (the three VPROS in <P>: <X>, <Y> & <Z>) to all be healthy and communicating via the IONET (the braided steel-sheathed coaxial 10-Base2 cables connecting the three VCMIs and the three protective processors).

The VPROs control the ETR (Emergency Trip Relays) on the TREG card, and the three UCVx cards control the PTR (Primary Trip Relays) on the TRPG card. BOTH sets of relays (the PTRs for the particular fuel/stop valve solenoid being used, and the ETRs) have to be energized and working (at least two out of three of each set of relays during normal operation, but certainly all relays during the initial START sequence) in order go get 125 VDC to the trip/fuel stop valve solenoid (20FG-1 in your case). The -65 VDC (presuming no 125 VDC battery ground exists) comes through the PTRs on the TRPG, and the _65 VDC comes through the ETRs on the TREG. Together, they combine to provide 125 VDC and the necessary current to operate the solenoid so that the fuel stop valve can be opened (the SRV in your case, via 20FG-1).

Based on the information provided, I can't say any more. On each of the three VCMI cards (in close proximity to the BNC connectors on the card) are LEDs which can be useful (some times) for diagnosing problems similar to the one you are trying to describe. TX stands for Transmitting; RX stands for Receiving; COL stands for Collision detection--which can occur when there are IONET problems--either cables or BNC connectors or BNC termination resistors, or even problems with the VPRO card(s), to which the IONET cables must also be connected for proper communication and operation.

The LEDS might be indicative of a problem, and they might not be.

There have been reports of rack issues; you said you removed some cards and cleaned the backplane and that's good.

Older RKPS power supplies (the honking giant power supplies on the right side of the processor racks) have also been known to have components which don't last as long as expected; I believe GE had a TIL out about that (or maybe more than one TIL--I can't recall). But, intermittent power supply issues could also be contributing to the problem.

DON'T overlook Diagnostic Alarms!!! The next time this occurs, use Toolbox to check the Diagnostic Alarms on the VPROs and the VCMIs and the UCVx cards. (If there is no or poor comm's between cards, not all Diag. Alarms may be visible.)

I have spent a good deal of time troubleshooting Mark VI IONET problems--and it's not fun and it's frustrating. They are usually intermittent, and it's usually something simple. For example, on at least two sites the BNC connector for one of the IONET ports on one of the VCMI cards was causing an intermittent problem--turns out the solder joints holding the BNC connector on the VCMI card were damaged and loose and making intermittent connection. On another card, it was a chip in the IONET circuit which was failing intermittently. (That one was traced by exchanging it with another VCMI and observing the problem followed the card to its new processor rack.)

WRITE DOWN the troubleshooting steps you perform. MORE IMPORTANTLY--write down the results of what you did. If you end up getting someone to site to help with the problem you will likely have tried so many things that you can't remember what you did or what the results were or how you did it--and you will be paying for someone else to repeat what you (think) was already done (tried). (If I had a nickel for every time I've heard, "We tried that!!" I would be a very wealthy man, but when I ask what the results were or how it was done no one can remember. So, do yourself a favour right now--and start writing down everything you've done and what the results were. ("It didn't work," doesn't count as a result. Something did happen or didn't happen--either something you expected to happen, or didn't expect to happen. That's a result.)

Be methodical. If you have questions--we can try to answer them here. (Some answers are better than others; YMMV. (Your Mileage May Vary)).

Finally, realize you may be fighting more than one problem. For example, a loose solder joint and a poor connection (corrosion). Or, a failing/failed BNC connector and an intermittent RKPS power supply. And a loose solder joint. (Unplugging cables and plugging them back in can damage already weakened solder joints. Failure to insert a card in a slot properly can cause damage to pins and receptacles.) Care should be taken with every operation. BNC connectors and BNC termination resistors are inexpensive; buy lots and replace them all.

Be safe, and stay healthy!!!

And please write back to let us know how you progress. If you need more help, we are going to need Diagnostic Alarm information (either screen captures or CLEAR photographs--both can be attached to posts here on Control.com).
 
oussam el,

Here's a quick check you can make. Using your multimeter set to at least 200 VDC range, measure from the terminal on the TRPG that one side of 20FG-1 is connected to ground. When the unit is at rest (or on Cooldown), it should read 0 VDC.

Now measure the voltage from the terminal on the TREG that the other side of 20FG-1 is connected to to ground. I should read 0 VDC.

START the turbine, and be prepared to take exactly the same measurements/voltage readings. As soon as the unit tries to fire (when the purge sequence is complete and the GCV opens) you want to read the voltages again. If you see the -65 VDC but not the +65 VDC, there is something amiss with the ETR circuit on the TREG--AND there WILL BE alarms to indicate why!!! If you see the +65 VDC, but not the -65 VDC, there is something amiss with the PTR circuit on the TRPG--AD there WILL BE alarms to indicate why!!!

The unit may trip quickly on failure to follow reference, so maybe you want to preposition two voltmeters to try to capture the voltage readings.

If you are forcing L4_XTP when stroking the SRV then the ETRs are working, but if they don't energize when firing, then something else is causing them not to pick up. L20FG1X (the typical signal name for the SRV trip solenoid) controls the PTRs, and if the unit is actually firing (presuming you HAVE NOT forced anything during firing!!!) they should NOT be the problem.

I presume you initiate a MASTER RESET immediately prior to initiating a START--which should clear any problems with the VPROs....

BUT, you still haven't provided a list of alarms--Process & Diagnostic--and we REALLY need that list to be able to do much more to help you.

If the SRV is NOT opening at all when trying to establish flame after the purge is complete, then something is preventing the full 125 VDC from being applied to 20FG-1--because you said you were able to make the SRV move with AutoCalibrate. And, to do that 20FG-1 HAS TO BE energized by 125 VDC. And, the 125 VDC comes from the TRPG and TREG cards.

Anyway, we need the list of alarms to be of any further help--the alarms present at the time the unit is STARTed, the alarms which get annunciated during STARTing, and the alarms which get annunciated when the trip occurs and a few seconds after the trip occurs. WIthout them--we are just guessing.
 
oussama el,

I MISTAKENLY POSTED THIS IN THIS THREAD; IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN POSTED IN ANOTHER THREAD WHICH IS ACTIVE AT THE SAME TIME. HOWEVER, SOME OF THE INFORMATION HERE YOU MAY FIND HELPFUL SO I'M NOT GOING TO REMOVE IT. (I have copied this information to the appropriate thread; my sincere apologies for any confusion.)

To START a turbine with a TMR (Triple Modular Redundant) Mark VI it is necessary for ALL processors--and the protective processors (the three VPROS in <P>: <X>, <Y> & <Z>) to all be healthy and communicating via the IONET (the braided steel-sheathed coaxial 10-Base2 cables connecting the three VCMIs and the three protective processors).

The VPROs control the ETR (Emergency Trip Relays) on the TREG card, and the three UCVx cards control the PTR (Primary Trip Relays) on the TRPG card. BOTH sets of relays (the PTRs for the particular fuel/stop valve solenoid being used, and the ETRs) have to be energized and working (at least two out of three of each set of relays during normal operation, but certainly all relays during the initial START sequence) in order go get 125 VDC to the trip/fuel stop valve solenoid (20FG-1 in your case). The -65 VDC (presuming no 125 VDC battery ground exists) comes through the PTRs on the TRPG, and the _65 VDC comes through the ETRs on the TREG. Together, they combine to provide 125 VDC and the necessary current to operate the solenoid so that the fuel stop valve can be opened (the SRV in your case, via 20FG-1).

Based on the information provided, I can't say any more. On each of the three VCMI cards (in close proximity to the BNC connectors on the card) are LEDs which can be useful (some times) for diagnosing problems similar to the one you are trying to describe. TX stands for Transmitting; RX stands for Receiving; COL stands for Collision detection--which can occur when there are IONET problems--either cables or BNC connectors or BNC termination resistors, or even problems with the VPRO card(s), to which the IONET cables must also be connected for proper communication and operation.

The LEDS might be indicative of a problem, and they might not be.

There have been reports of rack issues; you said you removed some cards and cleaned the backplane and that's good.

Older RKPS power supplies (the honking giant power supplies on the right side of the processor racks) have also been known to have components which don't last as long as expected; I believe GE had a TIL out about that (or maybe more than one TIL--I can't recall). But, intermittent power supply issues could also be contributing to the problem.

DON'T overlook Diagnostic Alarms!!! The next time this occurs, use Toolbox to check the Diagnostic Alarms on the VPROs and the VCMIs and the UCVx cards. (If there is no or poor comm's between cards, not all Diag. Alarms may be visible.)

I have spent a good deal of time troubleshooting Mark VI IONET problems--and it's not fun and it's frustrating. They are usually intermittent, and it's usually something simple. For example, on at least two sites the BNC connector for one of the IONET ports on one of the VCMI cards was causing an intermittent problem--turns out the solder joints holding the BNC connector on the VCMI card were damaged and loose and making intermittent connection. On another card, it was a chip in the IONET circuit which was failing intermittently. (That one was traced by exchanging it with another VCMI and observing the problem followed the card to its new processor rack.)

WRITE DOWN the troubleshooting steps you perform. MORE IMPORTANTLY--write down the results of what you did. If you end up getting someone to site to help with the problem you will likely have tried so many things that you can't remember what you did or what the results were or how you did it--and you will be paying for someone else to repeat what you (think) was already done (tried). (If I had a nickel for every time I've heard, "We tried that!!" I would be a very wealthy man, but when I ask what the results were or how it was done no one can remember. So, do yourself a favour right now--and start writing down everything you've done and what the results were. ("It didn't work," doesn't count as a result. Something did happen or didn't happen--either something you expected to happen, or didn't expect to happen. That's a result.)

Be methodical. If you have questions--we can try to answer them here. (Some answers are better than others; YMMV. (Your Mileage May Vary)).

Finally, realize you may be fighting more than one problem. For example, a loose solder joint and a poor connection (corrosion). Or, a failing/failed BNC connector and an intermittent RKPS power supply. And a loose solder joint. (Unplugging cables and plugging them back in can damage already weakened solder joints. Failure to insert a card in a slot properly can cause damage to pins and receptacles.) Care should be taken with every operation. BNC connectors and BNC termination resistors are inexpensive; buy lots and replace them all.

Be safe, and stay healthy!!!

And please write back to let us know how you progress. If you need more help, we are going to need Diagnostic Alarm information (either screen captures or CLEAR photographs--both can be attached to posts here on Control.com).
dear CSA
i read atentively
oussam el,

Here's a quick check you can make. Using your multimeter set to at least 200 VDC range, measure from the terminal on the TRPG that one side of 20FG-1 is connected to ground. When the unit is at rest (or on Cooldown), it should read 0 VDC.

Now measure the voltage from the terminal on the TREG that the other side of 20FG-1 is connected to to ground. I should read 0 VDC.

START the turbine, and be prepared to take exactly the same measurements/voltage readings. As soon as the unit tries to fire (when the purge sequence is complete and the GCV opens) you want to read the voltages again. If you see the -65 VDC but not the +65 VDC, there is something amiss with the ETR circuit on the TREG--AND there WILL BE alarms to indicate why!!! If you see the +65 VDC, but not the -65 VDC, there is something amiss with the PTR circuit on the TRPG--AD there WILL BE alarms to indicate why!!!

The unit may trip quickly on failure to follow reference, so maybe you want to preposition two voltmeters to try to capture the voltage readings.

If you are forcing L4_XTP when stroking the SRV then the ETRs are working, but if they don't energize when firing, then something else is causing them not to pick up. L20FG1X (the typical signal name for the SRV trip solenoid) controls the PTRs, and if the unit is actually firing (presuming you HAVE NOT forced anything during firing!!!) they should NOT be the problem.

I presume you initiate a MASTER RESET immediately prior to initiating a START--which should clear any problems with the VPROs....

BUT, you still haven't provided a list of alarms--Process & Diagnostic--and we REALLY need that list to be able to do much more to help you.

If the SRV is NOT opening at all when trying to establish flame after the purge is complete, then something is preventing the full 125 VDC from being applied to 20FG-1--because you said you were able to make the SRV move with AutoCalibrate. And, to do that 20FG-1 HAS TO BE energized by 125 VDC. And, the 125 VDC comes from the TRPG and TREG cards.

Anyway, we need the list of alarms to be of any further help--the alarms present at the time the unit is STARTed, the alarms which get annunciated during STARTing, and the alarms which get annunciated when the trip occurs and a few seconds after the trip occurs. WIthout them--we are just guessing.
dear CSA
thanks a lot for your helpfull support,and soory for the late to reply,i was too busy with this problem
i read atentively what you said in this problem,and also your discutions specialy with neo,its very helpful
before i started the turbine,
-i checked the voltage of the battery,and the alimentation of the TERG and TRPG card
-checked the solonoid l20FG1X
-shutdown the VPRO and restart
-shutdow the RST modules
-replace the TREG card with a new one
-checked the cables pin by pin
-checked the JH1 to TREG ,there are the 28VDC correctly
after all that,there are no change,always there is an alarm status in VPRO in all the three rack(X,Y and Z) ,code40: contact excitation voltage test failure,that mean in the document GEH6421-vol II: loss of P125 voltage
howevere,when i start the turbine, and prepared to take exactly the measurements/voltage by two multimeters. As soon as the unit tries to fire (when the purge sequence is complete and the GCV opens) . when the purge sequence is complete,i find loss of P125 and N125(+65 and -65) at the same time,there is something amiss with the ETR circuit on the TREG and the PTR circuit on the TRPG,and i noticed in TREG card ,K1_fdbk,K_2fdbk,K3_fdbk switched to 0 when the unit tries to fire.
best regards,
 
oussama el,

There is almost certainly alarms that are trying to alert the reader to some problem(s).

You may have read attentively, but you seem to have missed this extremely important bit:

"Anyway, we need the list of alarms to be of any further help--the alarms present at the time the unit is STARTed, the alarms which get annunciated during STARTing, and the alarms which get annunciated when the trip occurs and a few seconds after the trip occurs. WIthout them--we are just guessing."

I don't have access at this time to GEH-6421, Vol. II. We don't know if anything is connected to the trip inputs of the trip cards--it would be unusual for anything to be connected to them on a TMR Mark VI, but if GE Belfort had anything to do with the configuration anything is possible.

I don't really understand where you were monitoring voltage or how. But, it's pretty inconceivable that you could stroke the SRV (by forcing L20FG1X and L4_XTP) and have positive- and negative 65 VDC to 20FG-1 and then not have it during firing.

I suggest a dry fire of the unit. Disconnect BOTH leads of 20FG-1 from the TRPG and the TREG and then START the unit while monitoring the positive- and negative 65VDC outputs to ground from the TRPG and TREG. If the voltages disappear then something would seem to be amiss in the Mark VIn(not really likely--unless there is something we haven't been told...). If the voltages do not disappear, but are steady then I would suggest that something is amiss with the field wiring or the solenoid--but that wouldn't make sense because you can energize the solenoid during stroking of the SRV.

A dry fire refers to the fact that in this case fuel will not actually flow into the turbine--because 20FG-1 is disconnected.

A LOT of units these days, especially those configured by GE Belfort, have auxiliary fuel stop valves upstream (before) the GE fuel stop valves (in this case, 20FG-1). And it's not usually necessary to energize the aux feul stop valves to stroke 20FG-1. AND, the aux fuel stop valve is also connected to the TRPG & TREG, and it is usually energized at the same time as 20FG-1. So, if there's a wiring or solenoid problem with the aux fuel stop valve circuit that might explain the odd nature of the problem.

At this point without being able to see the .m6b Fike for the unit and not understanding what you did to test the voltage outputs from the TRPG & TREG, other than the above I don't have much to offer.

There is the E-Stop Pushbutton circuit which must be made up just to START which might be the problem. BUT, that means that to START the unit it's being forced to get the start-check permissive (the READY TO START signal).

There's something we don't know here, and it's very odd. Could be GE Belfort's configuration; could be something done prior to the start of this problem; could be some forcing we are unaware of.

Something is odd.
 
dear CSA
Good morning,
I checked the list annociated before and after the trip,i think its not be helpfull,however i capture a screenshot for those alarms
I checked the voltage of the 20FG-1 from the TREG and TRPG with two multimeter,while the purge sequences complete,the GCV open,the SRV tries to open,the current command come to the servovalve(MOOG),but didnt follow,not open at all,cause we lossed the excitation of 20FG-1 from the two cards TREG and TRPG at the same time,
I think the problem was surrounded in VPRO and its therminal boerd TREG and TRPG,i will attached some photos to more understanding the problem
 

Attachments

oussama sel,

WHAT SIGNAL(S) IS(ARE) FORCED--AND WHY???

I can only use my smarter-than-me-phone at the present time to look at the Alarm List.

A study of the Gas Fuel P&ID and the Trip Oil P&ID will probably reveal that unless 20FG-1 is energized and trip oil pressure for the Gas Fuel system is established that the SRV will never open regardless of the magnitude and/or polarity of SRV servo current.

I also believe the alarm screenshot is incomplete.
 
oussama sel,

I don't have access to a Mark VI System Guide at this time. I never see trip inputs connected to a TREG card UNLESS the Mark VI is a SIMPLEX control panel--BUT GE Belfort does smoke really strange configurations which leave me scratching my head for hours sometimes.

You need to look at the System Guide for the version of TREG installed in the Mark VI at your site and determine which terminals would be used for trip inputs and then look at the TREG to determine if any wires are connected to any of those terminals.

If so, then you need to use Toolbox to determine what inputs are connected to those terminals and start investigating those circuits. Based on the information provided I can't say much more.

I believe we have asked if there is a 125 VDC Battery Ground alarm present and in alarm on the Mark VI. And I don't recall an answer.... Is this alarm is not continuously active (in alarm) is it annunciated when the unit is STARTed?

It's just completely unclear how you can stroke the SRV (presumably by forcing L20FG1X and L4_XTP and probably L20TV1X) and the SRV will move but when you try to START the machine something is wrong. (I presume you are NOT forcing L4.?.?.?)

Pre-GE Belfort I believe that 20FG-1 would actually be energized some time before the SRV was supposed to open but the servo current was not "released" until after the ignitors ("spark plugs") were energized.

Again, I don't think the alarm screenshot is complete, and if it is then I suspect some alarms/conditions may be on additional pages and some may be LOCKED. I also DO NOT understand what logic signal is forced nor why--nor do I understand how you are manually stroking the SRV. Also, you have not fully explained what "shutdown" occurred and why that preceded this problem.

(I also pity people who have to work on turbine control systems with alarms like CRANKING MOTOR ALARM RUNNING. The only time one should care if the starting motor is running is if it's running when it should not be--and that should be extremely easy to determine from well-written logic. But, then it's already been determined GE Belfort logic is muddled, unnecessarily complicated and just plain unintelligible at times. But, I digress. Again. But, GE Belfort makes it SOOO EASY to digress.)

Anyway, I strongly suggest you get a knowledgeable person to site who can probably sort this in pretty quick fashion with full access to the the Alarm Display and Alarm Logs and can observe what you are doing and how you're doing it and, again, can probably quickly tell you how to resolve the problem. Because while you may be correct you seem to be fixated on a cause but you are unable or unwilling to provide the information we have requested. You have replaced the TREG--but the problem persists. If the problem is in the field and not in the Mark VI (As it probably is) then it's probably likely the new TREG may be ruined, also.

And, there's that business of the loss of excitation voltage--and what's connected to on or more of those inputs, and why. Again, someone on site can probably sort this pretty quickly.

I would really like to be of more help, but, without more complete information and a clear understanding of what happened to cause this, how you're manually stroking the SRV (which might be my misunderstanding, too!), and what all the alarms are (like those VSVO Diagnostic Alarms) and what's gorced--and why--I'm not going to be able to be of more assistance.

Please write back to let us know how you resolve the problem. I, for one, am EXTREMELY INTERESTED to find out what the cause is.

Best of luck!
.
 
All,

I tend to be very hard on GE Belfort--and they usually deserve it (from my personal experience as well as from friends and colleagues who have cleaned up their share of GE Belfort-made messes).

But, in this thread I have been wrong. The machine in this thread is a MS5002C--which means it's more than likely a GE Florence machine and/or control system. In my personal experience, GE Florence is pretty good at control system configuration and programming, and while I questioned the TREG trip inputs for a TMR panel this machine is probably a compressor driver and has a lot of extra I/O and controls interface than a generator drive.

My apologies for confusing Belfort and Florence.
 
dear CSA
Good morning,
I checked the list annociated before and after the trip,i think its not be helpfull,however i capture a screenshot for those alarms
I checked the voltage of the 20FG-1 from the TREG and TRPG with two multimeter,while the purge sequences complete,the GCV open,the SRV tries to open,the current command come to the servovalve(MOOG),but didnt follow,not open at all,cause we lossed the excitation of 20FG-1 from the two cards TREG and TRPG at the same time,
I think the problem was surrounded in VPRO and its therminal boerd TREG and TRPG,i will attached some photos to more understanding the problem
All the best with this issue!

Hasta la vista ...
 
oussama sel,

WHAT SIGNAL(S) IS(ARE) FORCED--AND WHY???

I can only use my smarter-than-me-phone at the present time to look at the Alarm List.

A study of the Gas Fuel P&ID and the Trip Oil P&ID will probably reveal that unless 20FG-1 is energized and trip oil pressure for the Gas Fuel system is established that the SRV will never open regardless of the magnitude and/or polarity of SRV servo current.

I also believe the alarm s
oussama sel,

I don't have access to a Mark VI System Guide at this time. I never see trip inputs connected to a TREG card UNLESS the Mark VI is a SIMPLEX control panel--BUT GE Belfort does smoke really strange configurations which leave me scratching my head for hours sometimes.

You need to look at the System Guide for the version of TREG installed in the Mark VI at your site and determine which terminals would be used for trip inputs and then look at the TREG to determine if any wires are connected to any of those terminals.

If so, then you need to use Toolbox to determine what inputs are connected to those terminals and start investigating those circuits. Based on the information provided I can't say much more.

I believe we have asked if there is a 125 VDC Battery Ground alarm present and in alarm on the Mark VI. And I don't recall an answer.... Is this alarm is not continuously active (in alarm) is it annunciated when the unit is STARTed?

It's just completely unclear how you can stroke the SRV (presumably by forcing L20FG1X and L4_XTP and probably L20TV1X) and the SRV will move but when you try to START the machine something is wrong. (I presume you are NOT forcing L4.?.?.?)

Pre-GE Belfort I believe that 20FG-1 would actually be energized some time before the SRV was supposed to open but the servo current was not "released" until after the ignitors ("spark plugs") were energized.

Again, I don't think the alarm screenshot is complete, and if it is then I suspect some alarms/conditions may be on additional pages and some may be LOCKED. I also DO NOT understand what logic signal is forced nor why--nor do I understand how you are manually stroking the SRV. Also, you have not fully explained what "shutdown" occurred and why that preceded this problem.

(I also pity people who have to work on turbine control systems with alarms like CRANKING MOTOR ALARM RUNNING. The only time one should care if the starting motor is running is if it's running when it should not be--and that should be extremely easy to determine from well-written logic. But, then it's already been determined GE Belfort logic is muddled, unnecessarily complicated and just plain unintelligible at times. But, I digress. Again. But, GE Belfort makes it SOOO EASY to digress.)

Anyway, I strongly suggest you get a knowledgeable person to site who can probably sort this in pretty quick fashion with full access to the the Alarm Display and Alarm Logs and can observe what you are doing and how you're doing it and, again, can probably quickly tell you how to resolve the problem. Because while you may be correct you seem to be fixated on a cause but you are unable or unwilling to provide the information we have requested. You have replaced the TREG--but the problem persists. If the problem is in the field and not in the Mark VI (As it probably is) then it's probably likely the new TREG may be ruined, also.

And, there's that business of the loss of excitation voltage--and what's connected to on or more of those inputs, and why. Again, someone on site can probably sort this pretty quickly.

I would really like to be of more help, but, without more complete information and a clear understanding of what happened to cause this, how you're manually stroking the SRV (which might be my misunderstanding, too!), and what all the alarms are (like those VSVO Diagnostic Alarms) and what's gorced--and why--I'm not going to be able to be of more assistance.

Please write back to let us know how you resolve the problem. I, for one, am EXTREMELY INTERESTED to find out what the cause is.

Best of luck!
.
Good morning
dear CSA
i fixed all the alarm diagnostic of VPRO and the controllers,control system is perfect
(about the alarm code40 on VPRO in the three rack X,Y Z, i rechange the the TREG card,like you suggest,cause the last new card was not good !!!!however,then all the alarms are gone),we think that the problem was solved,,then we start the machine(the forced signal is just for the door L33AF1,to asure ready to start),unfortunatly,the machine triped after the purge sequences,at firing,the L4 was loss,the L20HD1X switched to 0 at this time,then the SRV valve not following the commande,i trend the command and the current,all is corectly gone,when i checked the trip log,before the firing,there was nothing special,the machine was perfect,just i fire it,the 20hda1 switched to 0,the machine trip with no following trip alarm.
creenshot is incomplete.
[/QUOTE
 
ossama el,


The standard is: ANY condition that results in a trip SHOULD have a Process Alarm associated with it. This is just standard good practice--if the unit trips the operator(s) MUST have an alarm to indicate why.

I can't conceive of why there is no alarm.

You HAVE NOT told if there is any wires connected to the trip monitor inputs of the TREG card. What is it going to take for you to answer this question???!!?!?!!

1630829921008.png


The above is from GEH-6421, Vol. II. It is the lower of the two TBs on the TREG, and it would be where the "trip monitor" contacts would be terminated. I could guess that if someone added a trip input to the TREG that they didn't properly configure a Process Alarm to alert the operator to the trip condition.

You keep mentioning L20HDnx; HD would be for an older machine with servos for trip solenoids.... And would have another TB; I believe it's called the TTSA (you can probably find this TB in the VTUR section of Vol. II of GEH-6421--why it's in the VTUR section is ANYONE'S guess....!!!).. This would mean the Mark VI was an upgrade/retrofit to an older Mark turbine control system. Not that this is a problem--it's just not typical of newer units and it would make a difference to troubleshooting--in my opinion. I wonder if the problem is something to do with that TB and it's power supply....

If this was an upgrade to an older Mark* turbine control system, you should have a set of electrical drawings showing the interconnection of the TREG and TRPG and this 'intermediate' TTSA servo solenoid terminal board. I suggest you use this drawing to investigate the 20HD circuit(s).

Please write back to let us know how you're doing!!!
 
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