Dear List,

We have always maintained an official (safety) policy of licensed electricians only entering live electrical panels.

To get on-line to many PLCs and so on, technicians, engineers and programmers often have to go into a live panel (only a few customers are
nice enough to have a programming port on the side of the panel or access via a control Ethernet switch somewhere else). Without the site
electrician, or bringing one of our own guys to open the door and plug the cable in, this is not possible.

We checked over the Ontario legislation, but there did not seem to be any pointer to what exactly constitutes an "authorised person". Perhaps we missed the correct paragraph.

Any ideas? Pointers towards a "legally acceptable" training course would be helpful, if that is all it takes.

I am only worried about panels with voltages of less than 600VAC.

I have asked the Government of Ontario via the Ministry of Labour for clarification of the legislation, but the wheels of government turn ever so slowly.

Thanks

RA

 

Hello there,
If you look in the Ontario electrical code book in Section 0 there is a definition for 'Authorized person'. The basic interpretation is a person is authorized if they know and are aware of the hazards involved in working around electrical equipment. You don't have to be a licenced electrician. You just have to make sure the persons you allow to work on electrical equipment are competent.
Regards,
Malachy

 

I agree that the definition is extremely vague but remember that you may not be qualified to authourise a non licenced electrician. You could be held legally responsible should an unfortunate accident occur. I would check with the Ontario Apprentiseship Board since they have jourisdiction in this area. Let a qualifified electrician do what he is trained for. Do you go to the dentist at tax time

Gord

 

And exactly how would you define "they know and are aware of the hazards involved in working around electrical equipment"?

Most plants here in the states have similar rules, although most allow for some personnel other then electricians to enter electrical boxes. A few do not allow anyone other then electricians to enter electrical boxes to insure
that if something goes wrong that someone will be there to fix it immediately. when a line is worth $10,000 a minute of net margin, its best
to be a little conservative in just who you let into a box that might just shut you down.

Bob Peterson

 

I agree with the diagnosis but not the treatment. If you're worried about down time, a technician or an engineer is probably a less risky choice than an electrician, because he can address a broader range of problems. Although, I was once teamed with a PC programmer who thought it was beneath him to tighten a screw. That was "electrician's work".

 

Responding to Bob Peterson's, Tue, Sep 24, 10:21 am, "define" query:

That's easy. Paraphrasing our ex-president... it is based on how one who knows, knows.

Seriously, just answer the question, "Bob, are you a "Qualified Person" as defined by the NEC?"

Regards,
Phil Corso, PE
(Boca Raton, FL)

 

Well, in our plant we have a 2hr training class followed by a 20-question test for "Authorized" personnel. That class and test allow you to perform lockout/tagout and service equipment. We have another 2hr class and 20 question test for those of us allowed to work on live equipment... to be done only if it's impossible to LO, not just because you don't feel like finding your locks. We have to take the classes and tests annually. We have a safety orientation for contractors (20 minutes) that they must take
before being allowed to set foot in the plant. Most plants perform their own training and maintain records of "Authorized" personnel, I would think, for electrical safety. In another life I had training and passed tests that were given by a 3rd party to certify us to OSHA requirements for working on Superfund sites... but that's a special case. I think most large mfgrs. today are very involved in safety and record keeping around it, and they do have a very definite requirement for things like "Authorized."

Paul T

 

An earlier post stated that an authorized person was a licensed electrician.
I think the Ontario definition allows the authorization to be expanded to include engineers, technicians, programmers, service persons and others having technical knowledge of the equipment. I think this group must "know and are aware of the hazards involved in working around electrical equipment" if they are worth their salt.

Bill Code 604-513-8049
KR Consulting Ltd. Bill_Code@[email protected]
Surrey, B.C., Canada

 

The exchange below is exactly what I have been alluding to. If you go too narrow, then the line does not get fixed. If you are too broad then someone gets zapped (and the line does not get fixed).

All I have found myself is that the rules are vague because there are no real criteria on what is OK for qualifications and what is not OK.

I was hoping that this fishing expedition would produce someone who has heard of a training course, available by retail, that would help us with competent people who need to fill in the gaps. I am not suggesting that we let any old Tom, Dick or Harry take the course and then go into a live panel.

The only reason I need to get competent people into panels that are live is to plug in to PLCs, switches, hubs and so on and recognise what they should not touch.

RA

------------ Forwarded Message ------------
From: PETERSONRA

In a message dated 9/21/02 3:16:39 PM Central Daylight Time, Malachy writes:

>> If you look in the Ontario electrical code book in Section 0 there is
>> a definition for 'Authorized person'. The basic interpretation is a
>> person is authorized if they know and are aware of the hazards
>> involved in working around electrical equipment. You don't have to be
>> a
>> licenced electrician. You just have to make sure the persons you
>> allow to work on electrical equipment are competent.
>
>And exactly how would you define "they know and are aware of the hazards
involved in working around electrical equipment"?
>
>Most plants here in the states have similar rules, although most allow
for some personnel other then electricians to enter electrical boxes.
A few do not allow anyone other then electricians to enter electrical
boxes to insure that if something goes wrong that someone will be there
to fix it immediately. when a line is worth $10,000 a minute of net
margin, its best to be a little conservative in just who you let into a
box that might just shut you down.<

 

IIRC, the NEC is deliberately vague about just what consitutes a qualified person. Generally, that would leave it up to the AHJ to determine my
qualifications.

Bob Peterson

 

Well, I for one do not like live work. I am uncomfortable performing it on anything above 24V, so I generally get someone more comfortable. I also rarely have a set of tools and instruments with me, so i usually end up needing someone who does anyway.

Bob Peterson

 

On September 26, 2002 11:00 am, Ranjan Acharya wrote:
<clip>
> All I have found myself is that the rules are vague because there are no
> real criteria on what is OK for qualifications and what is not OK.
>
> I was hoping that this fishing expedition would produce someone who has
> heard of a training course, available by retail, that would help us with
> competent people who need to fill in the gaps. I am not suggesting that
> we let any old Tom, Dick or Harry take the course and then go into a
> live panel.
<clip>

I would suggest contacting a local college. They will put on custom courses for anyone. There is a good chance that they have done something similar to this already for a local industry. If you can fit your employees into a course they are putting on regularly for other people, that would be the ideal situation for you.
I suspect that what you are looking for is a short (half a day, one day) course with a test and an "official" certificate at the end of it. If the certificate comes from a college, then this is about as "official" as you can get. Don't forget to investigate if you can claim the cost back as employee education (you are more likely to be able to do this with a college course than with anything else).

I would suggest though that the course should cover a bit more than just electrical safety. Since these people could be working around hazardous equipment, they should be able to identify other hazards in general. These could include:

- Chemical hazards and how to read MSDS sheets.
- Noise, lasers, etc.
- Pneumatic and hydraulic hazards (i.e. don't use compressed air to blow dust off yourself, etc.).
- Protective clothing (hard hats, safety shoes, safety glasses etc.).
- Electrical safety - recognising and avoiding hazards.
- Lock out - when, where, how.
- Precautions to take when working around live equipment.
- Rights and obligations under the relevant acts and regulations. Under the
responsibility system, both employers *and* employees can be prosecuted by the Ministry of Labour. Work refusals can be a bother, but on the other hand this does also put the onus on the employee to not do something they know is
dangerous.

Some of the above may seem fairly basic, but surely no more so than knowing not to touch live conductors. If you are concerned about your employees being around work place hazards then I don't think that assigning an electrician to them is adequate. An electrician is an electrician, not a baby sitter (or as they are fond of saying, they are "electricians, not magicians"). There are
still lots of other ways for someone to get into trouble when working in industry.

If this line of inquiry is being pursued as part of a safety program, then you will need to issue safety policies, and have your employees made aware of them as part of their orientation. Under the responsibility system, directors issue safety policies, managers and supervisors enforce them, and employees obey them. Everyone is held responsible in some fashion. So one of your safety policies could be that employees must attend the safety course and pass the test before they may work at a job site. While under your employment they must follow the safety procedures they were instructed in as part of the course. They must not operate any machinery or perform any tasks they are not qualified for. Etc.

You might also consider contacting the Ministry of Labour to see if they have any suggestions. They would probably simply point you in the direction of a college though. There is also the Ontario Industrial Accident Prevention
Association (I think I have the name right). They may have some suggestions for you.

I think you will find the rules are vague because there are simply too many special cases and situations to try to write rules for all of them. Rather, you are expected to apply some criteria which are reasonable for your
situation. I think you are taking the correct approach by looking for a course. If someone has received a relevent safety course from someone who is qualified to teach such a course, then that is about as "authorised" as you can get.

Of course, I'm not an "authorised person" when it comes to giving out opinions on this subject, so use your own judgement when applying any of the above information.

************************
Michael Griffin
London, Ont. Canada
************************

 

For what it is worth, here is the Ministry of Labour's position on the issue:

"This response will be based on the requirements set out in the regulations for Industrial Establishments (O. Reg. 851) and the Occupational Health and Safety Act (the Act). An assumption will be made that you are a fulltime employee in an industrial establishment.

"Section 41 of O. Reg. 851 states: "The entrance to a room or similar enclosures containing exposed live electrical parts shall have a conspicuous sign, warning of the danger, and forbidding entry by unauthorized persons".

"Although "authorized person" is not specifically defined in the Act or O. Reg. 851 it is indented to mean authorized by the employer or supervisor.
Under the Act there is a general duty placed on employers and supervisors to ensure that workers are properly trained to do the work required of them. The decision as to the training and instruction that a worker must receive
to carry out the tasks required rests with the employer. It is the responsibility of the employer/supervisor to asses the electrical work to be done along with the skill level and the experience of the worker in deciding what training and instruction are required to ensure that the worker will work in a safe manner.

"In complying with the requirement to ensure that workers are properly trained employers may require their fulltime employees have a certain level of training in order to perform specific job tasks. For example an employer could decide that only TQAA qualified electricians will be permitted to do industrial electrical work. The alternative to this would be for an employer
or supervisor to provide specific training and instruction to their fulltime employees in order for them to carry out an electrical task in a safe
manner."

RA