This unit has Auto Sync from HMI ~ Problem. On DCIS (Ovation) once unit gets to sync speed and Auto Sync is selected from HMI a (sync Not Permitted) is displayed on DCIS. At this point we trip the unit reset roll backup, and the unit will sync as normal

Therefore I'm looking for answers while waiting on high-speed equipment to capture this. And why this scenario does not occur each time we go for a sync (We cycle daily)? When this does happen, why is it the unit will always sync on the second attempt?

Thanks for any feedback
Michael Daugherty
Mulberry Cogeneration Facility

 

MichaelD,

You have provided zero useful information for anyone to be much of any help whatsoever. What control system does the D-11 steam turbine use?

When did this problem start? The Mulberry Cogeneration facility isn't exactly new, so it's unlikely the plant has been dealing with the problem since commissioning (start-up).

What other alarms are present on the HMI for the steam turbine control system when the turbine-generator reaches synch speed?

What is the generator terminal voltage when the steam turbine reaches synch speed but can't be synch'ed?

Have you contacted the supplier of the steam turbine control system for assistance, or consulted the documentation they provided?

If you had clearly told what control system the steam turbine was using someone might have been able to offer some suggestions for troubleshooting. But, you didn't; so we can't.

It's possible that someone has had this exact same problem and can tell you precisely what to do to resolve the problem. If so, no thanks will be necessary.

If you don't get another reply, you're going to have to provide answers to all of the questions above (not just the ones you think are relevant).

Help us to help you. We're not there standing beside you. (Again, because of my answer it's likely someone will post with the quick solution to your problem.)

Best of luck with the high-speed data-gathering equipment. Synchronizing circuits and the logic to permit or enable synchronizing are not so complicated that high-speed data-gathering equipment is required. A simple review of the control system logic/programming/application code should be enough to solve the problem--presuming the steam turbine control system is a GE Mark or that the synchronizing logic was duplicated in whatever control system was used to replace the original GE steam turbine control system. But, as no useful information was provided. And even if the DCIS [sic] is being used for the steam turbine control system that is NOT CLEAR from the original post.

 

Mike,

Unfortunately as CSA has already indicated you need to provide a lot more information if you have any expectation of getting assistance. I hope for your sake this is a GE control system since there is lots of knowledge on this forum related to the MARK system and GE exciters. If this D11 has been migrated to some other control system, then the code could have been written in any kind of fashion depending on the engineer either trying to copy what GE wrote (Read Emerson), or mixing his own.

I'm sure there are plenty of folks here that would be glad to help, but with what you have provided there ain't much I can offer. Based on the Manufacturer category of "Other" that you selected, I am thinking you have something other than GE which is unfortunate in my opinion.

 

>You have provided zero useful information for anyone to be
>much of any help whatsoever. What control system does the
>D-11 steam turbine use?
MarkV-Upgrade to HMI Speedtronics

>When did this problem start? The Mulberry Cogeneration
>facility isn't exactly new, so it's unlikely the plant has
>been dealing with the problem since commissioning
>(start-up).
Started 2 months ago and very is very random we cycle daily and happen approx. 1 time out 7 starts.

>What other alarms are present on the HMI for the steam
>turbine control system when the turbine-generator reaches
>synch speed?
None! Only on DCIS Master-Control page it displays 'Sync Not Permitted

>What is the generator terminal voltage when the steam
>turbine reaches synch speed but can't be synch'ed?
Voltage is matched and sync. scope is turning slow clock-wise as it should.

>Have you contacted the supplier of the steam turbine control
>system for assistance, or consulted the documentation they
>provided?
We have call outs however they are weeks out.

>If you had clearly told what control system the steam
>turbine was using someone might have been able to offer some
>suggestions for troubleshooting. But, you didn't; so we
>can't.
Yes very much an oversight on my part.

>It's possible that someone has had this exact same problem
>and can tell you precisely what to do to resolve the
>problem. If so, no thanks will be necessary.
My manager claims he is reaching out!

>If you don't get another reply, you're going to have to
>provide answers to all of the questions above (not just the
>ones you think are relevant).
Will do better.

>Help us to help you. We're not there standing beside you.
>(Again, because of my answer it's likely someone will post
>with the quick solution to your problem.)
Thank You

>Best of luck with the high-speed data-gathering equipment.
>Synchronizing circuits and the logic to permit or enable
>synchronizing are not so complicated that high-speed
>data-gathering equipment is required. A simple review of the
>control system logic/programming/application code should be
>enough to solve the problem--presuming the steam turbine
>control system is a GE Mark or that the synchronizing logic
>was duplicated in whatever control system was used to
>replace the original GE steam turbine control system. But,
>as no useful information was provided. And even if the DCIS
>[sic] is being used for the steam turbine control system
>that is NOT CLEAR from the original post.

I'm not a skilled Control person the High-Speed data collector is what manager said he waiting on.

Thanks for your feedback.

 

I answered all CSA question to best of my knowledge!

>I'm sure there are plenty of folks here that would be glad
>to help, but with what you have provided there ain't much I
>can offer. Based on the Manufacturer category of "Other"
>that you selected, I am thinking you have something other
>than GE which is unfortunate in my opinion.

 

MichaelD,

Thanks for the information, but it's still not really clear what the plant has but I'm going to presume it's a Mark V turbine control system with a GE Mark V HMI running some version of MS-Windows and CIMPLICITY or PROFICY (read below). If you would provide more information instead of making us continue to guess we could probably be more helpful....

>MarkV-Upgrade to HMI Speedtronics

Never heard of it. Unless you are trying to say the IDOS <I> was upgraded to a GE Mark V HMI running some version of MS-Windows and CIMPLICITY (or PROFICY depending on the vintage of the HMI GE provided).

Speedtronics is what GE used to call their Mark IV and Mark V and even early Mark VI turbine control systems. BUT, John Deere had trademarked that name, so they dropped it and trademarked the Mark series of turbine control systems.

Early Mark Vs used <I> operator interfaces, which used a proprietary disk-based operating system called IDOS that ran MS-DOS as a scheduled task. It had a graphical user interface, but a lot of tasks had to be done from a command prompt (sometimes a DOS prompt).

Then, GE switched to HMIs (Human-Machine Interfaces) running MS-Windows as the operating system, and a proprietary background service called TCI along with another proprietary service called CIMBRIDGE to allow the PC to communicate with a Mark V via an ARCnet network interface card. Very kludgey system--to say the least.

The newest GE Mark V HMIs run MS-Windows and a proprietary software suite called ControlST, and WorkstationST. It also uses ToolboxST to interface to the Mark Vs and the ASCII text files required by the Mark V for configuration and programming. They're even worse than the early versions which ran TCI and CIMBRIDGE--just to be clear. The new graphics are suboptimal.

BUT, regardless of the HMI (or <I> operator interface) the Mark V does ALL of the control and protection. It's likely your "DCIS" (whatever that is...) is getting signals from the Mark V via the HMI/operator interface and is generating its own alarms and messages.

It's VERY hard to envision a scenario where the GE Mark V HMI is NOT annunciating ANY alarms (Process or Diagnostic) and the "DCIS" is saying 'Synch Not Permitted.' UNLESS the DCIS is the one that's preventing synchronization for some odd reason. (Many older Mark V installations had a signal which had to be set by the plant control system to allow synchronization to occur. There was usually an alarm on the GE Mark V HMI (or <I> operator interface) to say that synchronization was not enabled by the plant control system (possibly just something in the plant control system an operator clicked on to send the permissive to synch to the Mark V)--but not always. Maybe your plant was just lucky in that regard (never got an alarm when synch was not enabled by the plant control system).

Usually, if synchronization is being prevented by the Mark V there is some kind of process alarm--Auto Synch Lockout is one of the most common alarms, and it can be caused by several things.

If the synch scope needle is spinning on the GE Mark V HMI, then synch IS enabled somehow in the Mark V. If the Synch Selector is OFF, the synch scope needle won't rotate at all. There is usually MANUAL SYNCH, AUTO SYNCH and sometimes (often) a method of allowing synchronization checks to occur normally but the signal to actually close the breaker won't be sent. It's a "test mode" (and I can't recall exactly it's called, but I think it's SYNCH MONITOR or something like that).

When one of those three modes is selected and enabled the target on the SYNCH display will be "orange" (or some color different than the other possible selections). You need to look at the Synch Selector and see which mode is selected and enabled--simply looking at the synch scope needle isn't enough. There is usually a vertical group of boxes, which are either red or green. If they're all green, then the Mark V says the synch parameters are all met and if the proper mode of synchronization is selected and enable it will send the signal as the needle approaches 12 o'clock. (Unless SYNCH MONITOR is selected and enabled, of course.)

The GE Mark V HMI has a troubleshooting function called VIEW2 which can be used to gather data to analyze the problem. One needs to know which signals to monitor with VIEW2 and it has to be run from a command prompt window, but it's very helpful. There are instructions for using VIEW2 (and the other "VIEW" tools) in the Mark V Maintenance Manual, GEH-5980. It's the place to start--using the VIEW tools and reading the fine manual.

AND, I think if you have one of the newest GE Mark V HMIs running ControlST, WorkstationST and ToolboxST you can use the Trend Recorder feature of ToolboxST to gather data and analyze it graphically.

There are many companies which can supply Mark V-experienced people who can help you with your problem--even if GE can't. It's still a good and serviceable control system (though it does have a somewhat deserved bad reputation--but there were a couple thousand of them sold and installed around the world; it can't be all that bad!). I'm not going to make recommendations or name companies, but your site should belong to the 7EA Users' Group and you can get names of companies and recommendations from users there. (I know; you're having the issue on the D-11 steam turbine--but the Mark V for a steam turbine isn't that much different than the Mark V for a gas turbine--and when you need someone if that person has Mark V experience they can usually help solve the problem.)

Please write back to let us know what is discovered.

 

We have GE coming in with high speed data. Thank you for replys.