Manual Start of Jacking Oil Pump

How can we start Jacking Oil Pump manually using Mark VI? We want to test the pump when turbine is offline. I am used to Alspha HMI ang this is new to me. Thanks in advance
 
OTY,

Most motor starters provided with GE-design heavy duty gas turbines have a switch on the door to allow the motor to be started manually. The switch is usually referred to as a H-O-A switch, for HAND-OFF-AUTO. The switch is usually left in the AUTO position. Some switches can be moved to the HAND position and when released they will remain in the HAND position. Others, when moved to the HAND position and released will return to the AUTO position.

To run the jacking oil pump, it’s usually necessary for the Auxiliary L.O. Pump to be running.

The easiest way to run the pump manually would be to start the Auxiliary L.O. Pump, by moving its H-O-A switch to HAND (hopefully it will remain in the HAND position when released).

Then move the Jacking Oil Pump H-O-A switch to HAND.

Without knowing A LOT MORE about the unit and the control system and the signal names involved there’s not much more to say. Most GE HMIs, unfortunately, do not have a way to manually start and stop electric motors from a display. It might be possible to force the logic to start the pumps but we do not have enough information to offer any more help. Forcing logic requires knowledge of a password, also.

The above is based on my personal experience with GE-design heavy duty gas turbines. But, they are changing and you haven’t told us anything about the unit you are working on or the packager of the unit. It’s not good to assume all GE-design heavy duty gas turbines are alike. They all suck and squeeze and burn and blow, but they have many different auxiliaries, and now that responsibility for control philosophy for different units has been given to different divisions of GE things are changing even faster.

Best of luck.

If you write in the future, please don’t assume all GE units, even of the same Frame size, are alike; and also remember: We only know what you tell us. (In this thread, that’s very, very little.)
 
CSA is correct and informative as usual.

Just FYI, I have not encountered a GE 8000 series motor control center made after 2003 (in the USA) that allows the motor control to be more than a momentary contact. Usually AUTO is always selected with OFF and Manual selectable but must be held in that position.
Which means one has to hold it in the ON position.
 
I am thinking to just test them using function group sequence, i will just change the primary Jacking Oil Pump (JOP) so that when i start the group the primary pump JOP will start. What are your insights about this? This is to avoid controlling it manually
 

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I am thinking to just test them using function group sequence, i will just change the primary Jacking Oil Pump (JOP) so that when i start the group the primary pump JOP will start. What are your insights about this? This is to avoid controlling it manually



If the HMI will allow it, then go for it.
 
I am thinking to just test them using function group sequence, i will just change the primary Jacking Oil Pump (JOP) so that when i start the group the primary pump JOP will start. What are your insights about this? This is to avoid controlling it manually



If the HMI will allow it, then go for it.
Thanks Curious_One,

With this, If HMI will allow, I think we can just test if the pumps are running but not the function of automatic cut-in whatever the conditions of automatic JOP cut-in. Are you an expert with this Mark VIe controls?
 
I am not an expert in anything. I do however have experience on steam turbines and gas turbines.

My past experience with an HMI is that it should only execute logic that is stored in the controller. The controller logic SHOULD only allow things to happen that will NOT destroy a machine.

Logic forcing and/or manually forcing something to happen is a bad thing unless someone knows exactly what could happen.

In the end, If the HMI will allow it, Go for it!!
 
OTY,

I wish I could answer that question. You need to ask GE Belfort.

And I wish to retract my previous reply, because, first, this is an Alsthom turbine, and, second, and more importantly GE Belfort programmed the turbine control system.

Before the advent of combined cycle steam turbines almost every steam turbine was unique. Why? Because the sand casting mold for the turbine shell had to be broken to free the shell from the casting mold. The casting shell couldn’t be reused.

I mention this because just about every turbine control system that GE Belfort configures and programs is unique. It’s rare, in my experience, for them to do the same thing twice. There seems to be some kind of standard—written or unwritten—that dictates that they try to reinvent the wheel with every bit of code they write. And, with Mark VIe, they also love, Love, LOVE to change modules and configurations, also. Same with HMI displays, too.

So, you need to find the training manuals used to train operators and technicians when the unit was being built or commissioned, because that’s probably the best answer you’re going to get. That or contact GE Belfort with your questions. I will say they seem to be a little more responsive than GE Greenville (USA).

I would certainly hope that if there was a display “faceplate” for operating electric motors from the HMI that the application code running in the Mark VIe (and Mark VIeS since the unit came from GE Belfort) would have the necessary interlocks and permissive to prevent trying to run a motor when it might damage the machine. And, it’s my belief (not my knowledge) that that’s why GE didn’t include such capability on their equipment—because they simply didn’t want to write the code to protect the machine from operators doing something they shouldn’t. By requiring someone to go to the motor starter to run a motor manually that almost ensured someone knowledgeable would be at the switch and not try to do something which would be inappropriate or cause damage. Because I asked many people in GE USA engineering why they didn’t put that capability in the Mark* and on the HMI—people who should have known the answer—and I never received a good answer. Trust me when I say that GE USA was of the practice “if it ain’t broke, don’t change it!” Meaning that if it had existed in programming for years or decades even if it was wrong and nobody knew who originally wrote the code—nobody would change it! Whereas, GE Belfort is nearly the exact opposite—“If it’s working fine and it’s simple and efficient, then it must therefore need to be unnecessarily complicated and bloated!”

I haven’t worked on that many GE Belfort machines, but from my experience and from what I hear from people who have reviewed GE Belfort code, it’s bloated, horribly complicated and obtuse. And it rarely gets re-used on successive machines. That used to be one of the outstanding features of GE USA code—it was well-written, tested and efficient and re-used for decades! (Sometimes even when it was broken… And didn’t get changed, so that broken code could almost be counted on to appear in many units for a long time. Almost like an old friend. Like the fact that a turbine will fire with low trip oil pressure—and there’s no Process Alarm to indicate low trip oil pressure until AFTER the warm-up timer expires at which point the unit will trip on low trip oil pressure!!!)
 
I am thinking to just test them using function group sequence, i will just change the primary Jacking Oil Pump (JOP) so that when i start the group the primary pump JOP will start. What are your insights about this? This is to avoid controlling it manually
Good day ,

Assuming that the unit is at standstill it may be possible to start manually the JOP..
Did you ever try to check logic command of this JOP subsytem or FG...
Yes as @Curious_One stated it may be possible to start and stop it manually from MCC...
 
CSA and ControlsGuy25: Yes I have read you posts on this subject. Thank you for your continued support for others.

QTY,
I am sorry for my short and uninformative answers. I am in the middle on 2 major inspections and 3 boroscope inspections.
I have become very short is answers and mainly just a problem child lately.

QTY,
I have read the CSA comments regarding steam turbines and Belfort.

I have stated earlier regarding a HMI having the ability to destroy a turbine. The HMI should not be able to do that.

Steam turbine HMI info:

If you click on a button on a GE HMI , it will not execute until you release the mouse button. This allows you to move away from the button and release the mouse in case you did not want to execute that command.

If you click on a button on a GE HMI, and it is a very important button a pop-up dialog box should appear and say ARE YOU SURE?

If you click on a button on a GE HMI, and the color of the button does not change. The command did not execute. The HMI will not alarm or tell you why it did not execute.
Just FYI: Part of the sych process on a large steam turbine had a SPEED MATCHING button. The operation procedure listed the clicking of that button but did not tell the operators that the button would not work until 3300 rpm. The operators click it and
had not idea that nothing happened. The turbine would go to 3620 rpm and they would click SYNC. The turbine would lower speed and sync but mometum could not be recovered it time and the reverse power relay would open the generator breaker.
 
Never the less, if the turbine is offline. Feel free to click on buttons. If the boiler is offline, and steam pressure is not present one can do very little to cause problems.

Please locate and refer to the operations manual for the turbine/hmi provided by GE.

This is the best I can do with the information I have obtained from you thus far. It is also the best I can do in my current mood.
 
Never the less, if the turbine is offline. Feel free to click on buttons. If the boiler is offline, and steam pressure is not present one can do very little to cause problems.

Please locate and refer to the operations manual for the turbine/hmi provided by GE.

This is the best I can do with the information I have obtained from you thus far. It is also the best I can do in my current mood.
I am thinking to just test them using function group sequence, i will just change the primary Jacking Oil Pump (JOP) so that when i start the group the primary pump JOP will start. What are your insights about this? This is to avoid controlling it manually

Can you tell us what you at least attending to do with such manipulation..

As There should be a "Lube oil test sequence " implemented....

Did you investigate on this side...

I can provide more gathering datas for performing such operations...
 
I am thinking to just test them using function group sequence, i will just change the primary Jacking Oil Pump (JOP) so that when i start the group the primary pump JOP will start. What are your insights about this? This is to avoid controlling it manually
Hi

Can you tell us what is that "Prot cap clsd " Means ...

Thx
Controlsguy25.
 
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