Our HMI station is running on classic Windows NT 4.0 - Pentium 3 processor.

Is there any idea how to upgrade it to Windows XP for example?

Concerns:
- Driver for PCI based Arcnet card
- Cimplicity software for WinXP
- Other hidden settings

 

dinster,

I think you have two options: Buy a new HMI from GE, or buy one of the third-party HMIs now being offered. There were posts recently about CSE Engineering, Inc.'s <ITC> (they were advertising for a while on control.com; we should try to support our advertisers here). I think the URL was http://www.itc-info.us, or http://www.cse-eng-inc.com.

Also, there was a post or two from our Canadian brethren at Matrikon about their OPC server being able to communicate directly with Mark V panels. I can't find the information on their website (http://www.matrikon.com), but there were some posts a while back. They are quick to respond to emails and phone calls; and once they get your name and number and email address, they're tenacious (for lack of a better word).

I think there was another company which was advertising CIMPLICITY-based HMIs for Mark V, but I could never find anything on their website about them and they didn't return phone calls or emails. I think they were in Florida, but can't remember the name. Use the search function, if you haven't already.

But, I've seen three sites try to upgrade their CIMPLICITY and OS (operating system) without GE support with disastrous results. GE have this matrix of what runs with what, and what service packs and patches are needed for this and that (of course, it's not published). At two of the three sites, they gave up and bought new HMIs from GE. At the third, they just gave up after spending more money than they would have if they'd bought the GE HMIs. They had GE-Fanuc in to try to get the HMIs working and they spent weeks working on the project, buying PC hardware and software.

GE does not support user upgrades; they only want to sell something they know will work (hardware and software).

But really, if the current HMI is working, other than a *little* increase in speed, what will you be gaining for your money? What will a new HMI do that the current one won't? I can understand wanting to upgrade operator interfaces with ISA-bus ARCnet cards (which aren't available any longer), but short of that, what's the point?

One of the most important things one can do to maintain, and even improve the performance of WinNT-based HMIs is to periodically run a good disk defragmenter (not the Microsoft ones, but something like Diskeeper (I think that's how they spell it)). WinNT is known for fragmented files, and you'd be surprised at how much better the OS and applications running under it perform when the disk is maintained and kept clean. You need to stop TCI and CIMPLICITY when running the defragmenter, and I think you should be cautious when dealing with page files (If I recall correctly).

We'd all be very curious to follow your decision-making and learn how your effort turns out.

 

CSA,

i actually didnt notice u actually had replied to my post....

at first i thought upgrading our HMI is a straight forward thing - buy a new hardware, get the correct arcnet card w/ correct driver, and get the latest Cimplicity from GE Fanuc...

that's the only basis i raised the question of HMI upgrading..

now that i have realized it is NOT that easy..

fyi i've been in communication w/ CSE Engineering as well as ITS.. and i personally like ITS's TMOS more.. not only they can talk directly to <C> core via Stagelink.. they can act as OPC server too! but too bad TMOS only supports DA protocol (i need A & E as well)

we're currently in deep discussion w/ them and at the same time we're analyzing our Mark V very carefully so that this TMOS wont invite any trouble to us.

Since TMOS will be a new "guy" in the Stagelink Node.. there will be 2 things which i believe i have to take care of..

(a) Core Idle Time
(b) Core Memory Status

do u happen to know what's the minimum safe level of these 2 parameters b4 it disturbs the whole system sir ?

 

dimster,

(a) Any idle times less than about 10% seem to be problematic, but that's just a personal observation. I think it's really several factors, including rate of data requests, amount of alarm and event "traffic", MODBUS requests, GSM requests, historical data server requests, etc.

(b) I don't know anything about this parameter or how to monitor it.

 

MatrikonOPC Server for MarkV Direct supports both OPC DA and A&E and will connect to MarkVs over Arcnet.

http://www.matrikonopc.com/opc-drivers/303/base-driver-details.aspx

Adriel Michaud
MatrikonOPC

 

In the meantime the WINNT based HMI is obsolete. Assuming that the service life (and not the MTBF) of the HMI such as motherboard, HDD etc. is limited (depending on the environmental conditions up to 12 years I guess). There are several options for this issue:
1) Mitigation
2) Partial Upgrade
3) Migration

Answers on:
1) Mitigation: If you want to mitigate the obsolesces problem you may purchase a new PC (OS XP) and use the PCI Arcnet card. Alternatively, if your WINNT HMI remaining hardware is functioning properly and your concern is still the Arcnet card, you can use the PCI Arcnet card with your existing WINNT HMI.

2) Partial upgrade: will be purchasing of new XP OS HMI. Only address that can do this job properly is GE. It's not cheap but you will have guaranteed trouble free operation of your system!

3) Migration: Means upgrade from MK5 panel to MKVIe, which also includes the new XP HMI. If you have the budget to purchase this option go ahead and do it. At least you should be aware that, in the meantime the MK5 panel (with some of the IO cards etc.) would be soon declared obsolete by the OEM. Progressively the production of the remaining cards will stop. Of course you can still buy these cards from none OEM companies. If you don't have any reliability/availability concerns in your plant, you can go on "adventure" and try to "survive" with repaired/second hand cards. I wish you good luck. Professional companies they are no "adventurers" and therefore will not choose this way.

YES FOR GE MKVIe...

Note: I am not from GE sales department!

Good Luck...
A. Oztas

 

I have often wondered about what other people were doing when their HMIs or Arcnet cards die. We too have a site using Mark Vs and using Arcnet where we have had communications problems and had a hard time finding replacement parts.

Does anyone know if new Mark V installs still use Arcnet?

 

Arcnet card will still be there since that's the communication used in Mark V.

Next year we'll invest in 3rd party GE HMI replacement. So far already found 3 potential vendors. Post your email here if you want to see head-to-head technical comparison between GE HMI and those offered by 3rd party.

You will be impressed!

 

I don't believe GE is manufacturing Mark V control systems these days.

 

I've looked at the Matrikon site, and I have a few questions about using MatrikonOPC Server to communicate with a Mark V. Will one still be able to:

1) download modifications to EEPROM?

2) use AutoCalibrate for LVDT Calibration?

3) force logic signals?

4) view Diagnostic Alarms?

5) look at Pre-Vote Data?

Thanks!

 

if i understand your question right..

AFAIK this MatrikonC Mark V Direct OPC Server will become another node in your Stagelink ring bus.

It's primarily meant for data acquisation (historial data + SOE data) to be exported out to 3rd party database eg. OPC HDA server or PI server

Even though there are customers who utilizes this OPC server to control their turbine - it's not many. I remember there's 1 site in Australia uses Citect HMI + Matrikon OPC Direct to control their GT.

Having said that, having this OPC server will not intefere any of your concerns listed above - bcoz u still can do that using your current GE HMI.

 

It would have to be a node on the StageLink and have a StageLink ID (number) to be able to communicate with a Mark V.

If one is replacing the <I> or GE Mark V HMI with another HIM, wouldn't one want something that completely eliminated the <I> or GE Mark V HMI? What's the point of having a "supplemental HMI" and having to maintain it and the GE operator interface (<I> or HMI)?

A replacement means duplicating existing functionality, not partially supplementing it. More training and maintenance and configuration to support a partial operator interface replacement seems to be defeating the purpose of the purchase, which is to eliminate the older <I> or HMI. If this doesn't eliminate the GE operator interface, then why?

I could understand using this to "feed" a data archival and retrieval system ("historian") or a DCS. But, especially with <I>s, which have unavailable hardware, I don't see the point of having this program and having to hope against hope that the <I> will keep running in order to be able to troubleshoot and calibrate the Mark V!

It just seems to me that having to maintain both a GE operator interface (especially an <I>, when legacy ARCnet cards are not available) and an OPC server is not cost-effective. Why not buy one of the HMIs which can serve as a full functional replacement for the GE operator interface?

 

You share the same view as mine. Now we're looking at 3rd party HMI which can talk directly to <C> core at the same time can be used as OPC server!

There's 3 strong contenders in the market: GCI from Global-Controls, IBECS from CSE Eng. and TMOS from ITS.

On the issue of completely replacing HMI or <I>... sometimes it can be a bit complicated... especially when this involves LTSA w/ GE.

IMO, it's BEST to completely replace them if you could... since 3rd party solution offers many extra features, e.g. off-the-shelf Arcnet card, RAID5 capable server, up to date OS (Win XP or Vista or Win Server 2003), high speed real time trending, historical + SOE data, etc. etc. etc.

 

we are a 3rd part HMI supplier specializing in rugged environment HMI's.. I would like to read your opinion of the others on the market. We build HMI's to operate windows XP embedded and whatever other software is needed.

 

We had a failure with HMI running win2k, Cimplicity 4.5, and toolbox. We did some research and ended up with a quick fix restore to newer machine with image of old. The mother board is obsolete and not many options. GE is not offering a migration package. So after hours of work on the image we had a new machine working well. The issues arrive soon after: Microsoft no longer supports win2k nor NT. WECC requires XP or higher. The owner wanted writing form GE that we could use a NON GE HMI to run on their control network. Thus said we have pulled the new machine off the network unless we end up in an outage. We are forced to let GE give us a huge quote for replacement of our entire network. End result 5yr warranty, WIN XP, New Cimplicity 6+, New Toolbox, WECC compliant and the best option.

Personally I liked the 1500.00 machine we used, but it does not comply with today’s standards. Factor in the cost of outage and GE upgrade will pay for itself.

Not much help, but it’s the route we are stuck with.

 

post your email scott.

i can share w/ u.