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Procurement and Installation of Historian for Mark V Dos Operating System
- Thread starter doshevire
- Start date
doshevire,
You must really like a challenge—or you are new on the job and someone is testing your ambition and drive. Or, someone doesn’t like you.
A Mark V operator interface running IDOS (GE’s proprietary disk-based operating system for Mark V turbine control systems) is called <I>, and they have not been produced for a very long time. If your site has been fortunate enough to keep several <I>’s running the site is very lucky to have such knowledgeable staff skilled in finding CPUs and ARCnet network interface cards. Good on you, and continued good luck. You must also have a good instrumentation & controls department that understands GE-design heavy duty gas turbines and is knowledgeable in using the Mark V to maintain and troubleshoot the units—so another congratulation is in order. The Mark V is a much-maligned turbine control system but is a fine and reliable turbine control system when properly maintained and operated by people who understand turbine operation, control and protection. And parts are still widely available, too (except for <I>‘s, that is!).
There were some Mark V Historians produced during that period when <I>’s were sold with Mark V turbine control systems but they were few and far between and they came very poorly configured and had a very steep learning curve—VERY STEEP! They were based on OSIsoft PI software, which while powerful required dedicated manpower to properly configure, maintain and support as well as retrieving data for others—they were not user-friendly or intuitive at all.
Your best recommendation would be to contact the Control Systems Division of MD&A (Mechanical Dynamics & Analysis), based in Fort Collins, Colorado, USA. They have entered into an agreement with the company that originally produced a product called IBECS. IBECS can communicate natively with Mark V turbine control panels and uses a graphical operator interface to operate the equipment (turbines, auxiliaries and driven devices).IBECS can completely replace any Mark V operator interface (<I> or GE Mark V HMI running MS-Windows and CIMPLICITY or PROFICY Machine Edition). IBECS can calibrate LVDTs, change Control Constants, force logic, change Control Sequence Programs—anything a GE operator interface can do.
It also has a built-in data archival and retrieval capability—in other words, a Historian. No need to buy a separatedata archival and retrieval system.
It also uses modern-day CPUs with RAID capabilities—and the latest ARCnet network interface technologies. IBECS can even run on notebook (laptop) computers.
There have been some control system integrators which have used some OPC (OLE Procces Control) software to get data from Mark V panels and send it to another software program for archival and retrieval (such as OSIsoft PI—which is very powerful but still requires dedicated manpower to configure, maintain and use—PLUS it’s VERY expensive). So, you might have two pieces of software, possibly running on two separate computers which have to talk to each other and require maintenance and troubleshooting. With IBECS, it’s all in one software package, and can be distributed to redundant computers.
Anyway, all I know is IBECS is pretty impressive in what it can do and it doesn’t take six months or longer to get them up and running. And, they are far less expensive than GE HMIs and Historians. GE probably won’t even sell a Historian for a Mark V still using an <I>. They would probably “persuade” you to buy their Mark V-to-Mark VIe Life Extension with their new Active Point HMIs and their thin client HMI network. (Believe me, that’s the last configuration you want to buy. It’s over-priced, has very poor support, and doesn’t begin to live up to its capabilities or even what it is promised to do. And did I mention the support is awful?)
Visit mdaturbines.com.
Look for the Control Systems Division section and IBECS. Their phone number is: 1-970-223-2224.
MD&A is part of Mitsubishi Power Systems. MD&A have very good engineering resources and parts for GE-design turbines (gas and steam) as well as legacy GE turbine control systems, particularly Mark IV, Mark V, Mark VI and Mark VIe.
Hope this helps!
If you find another alternative, please write back to let us know what you found. We are always looking for solutions and technology.
You must really like a challenge—or you are new on the job and someone is testing your ambition and drive. Or, someone doesn’t like you.
A Mark V operator interface running IDOS (GE’s proprietary disk-based operating system for Mark V turbine control systems) is called <I>, and they have not been produced for a very long time. If your site has been fortunate enough to keep several <I>’s running the site is very lucky to have such knowledgeable staff skilled in finding CPUs and ARCnet network interface cards. Good on you, and continued good luck. You must also have a good instrumentation & controls department that understands GE-design heavy duty gas turbines and is knowledgeable in using the Mark V to maintain and troubleshoot the units—so another congratulation is in order. The Mark V is a much-maligned turbine control system but is a fine and reliable turbine control system when properly maintained and operated by people who understand turbine operation, control and protection. And parts are still widely available, too (except for <I>‘s, that is!).
There were some Mark V Historians produced during that period when <I>’s were sold with Mark V turbine control systems but they were few and far between and they came very poorly configured and had a very steep learning curve—VERY STEEP! They were based on OSIsoft PI software, which while powerful required dedicated manpower to properly configure, maintain and support as well as retrieving data for others—they were not user-friendly or intuitive at all.
Your best recommendation would be to contact the Control Systems Division of MD&A (Mechanical Dynamics & Analysis), based in Fort Collins, Colorado, USA. They have entered into an agreement with the company that originally produced a product called IBECS. IBECS can communicate natively with Mark V turbine control panels and uses a graphical operator interface to operate the equipment (turbines, auxiliaries and driven devices).IBECS can completely replace any Mark V operator interface (<I> or GE Mark V HMI running MS-Windows and CIMPLICITY or PROFICY Machine Edition). IBECS can calibrate LVDTs, change Control Constants, force logic, change Control Sequence Programs—anything a GE operator interface can do.
It also has a built-in data archival and retrieval capability—in other words, a Historian. No need to buy a separatedata archival and retrieval system.
It also uses modern-day CPUs with RAID capabilities—and the latest ARCnet network interface technologies. IBECS can even run on notebook (laptop) computers.
There have been some control system integrators which have used some OPC (OLE Procces Control) software to get data from Mark V panels and send it to another software program for archival and retrieval (such as OSIsoft PI—which is very powerful but still requires dedicated manpower to configure, maintain and use—PLUS it’s VERY expensive). So, you might have two pieces of software, possibly running on two separate computers which have to talk to each other and require maintenance and troubleshooting. With IBECS, it’s all in one software package, and can be distributed to redundant computers.
Anyway, all I know is IBECS is pretty impressive in what it can do and it doesn’t take six months or longer to get them up and running. And, they are far less expensive than GE HMIs and Historians. GE probably won’t even sell a Historian for a Mark V still using an <I>. They would probably “persuade” you to buy their Mark V-to-Mark VIe Life Extension with their new Active Point HMIs and their thin client HMI network. (Believe me, that’s the last configuration you want to buy. It’s over-priced, has very poor support, and doesn’t begin to live up to its capabilities or even what it is promised to do. And did I mention the support is awful?)
Visit mdaturbines.com.
Look for the Control Systems Division section and IBECS. Their phone number is: 1-970-223-2224.
MD&A is part of Mitsubishi Power Systems. MD&A have very good engineering resources and parts for GE-design turbines (gas and steam) as well as legacy GE turbine control systems, particularly Mark IV, Mark V, Mark VI and Mark VIe.
Hope this helps!
If you find another alternative, please write back to let us know what you found. We are always looking for solutions and technology.
Hi All
As CSA mentionned well someone may not like you to give you such task to achieve...( just a joke)
Indeed installing& operating Historians on MarkV IDOS ( multi units) seems to be a nightmare!
But dont panic we have the solutions for succeding on this assignement (at least by remote)
That will demand some efforts from your side moreover when you are not familiar with designated equipments and acccesories/auxiliaries..
Did you have ever read the right technical manual form OEM ( GE energy)
I got & readed one which it is well described how to achieve the task!
Cheers,
James
As CSA mentionned well someone may not like you to give you such task to achieve...( just a joke)
Indeed installing& operating Historians on MarkV IDOS ( multi units) seems to be a nightmare!
But dont panic we have the solutions for succeding on this assignement (at least by remote)
That will demand some efforts from your side moreover when you are not familiar with designated equipments and acccesories/auxiliaries..
Did you have ever read the right technical manual form OEM ( GE energy)
I got & readed one which it is well described how to achieve the task!
Cheers,
James
Thanks James. I will need all the support. Please get in touch with me on my Private [email protected]
Hi all!
Here some notes that i got about MarkV HISTORIAN IDOS :
There are several things that you will need to know to use the Historian. These things are laid out in simple form in this manual. The Historian is a VMS based system. What this means is that the commands that you will use to copy files, change directories, and manipulate data on the Historian will all be different from an IBM or DOS based system. Remember, if you ever get into trouble or feel lost in the Historian, consult the Maintenance Guide or use the Help function in the VMS system.
The list of things that follow are in sequential order and are the simple things that you will need to know to use the Historian.
1) Logging into the system - this will be necessary to do anything on the Historian so it must be done first
2) Starting the data collection - to tell the Historian to start collecting and storing the data points
3) Stopping the data collection - to tell the Historian to stop collecting and storing the data points
4) Archiving data onto tape - because the Historian has a limited amount of space on the hard drive, the data must be transferred to tape for permanent storage and to make room for new data
5) Restoring data from tape - to look at data that has been previously transferred to tape and is no longer on the hard drive or is corrupted
6) Logging off the system - this will be done when you are finished with the Historian
Indeed you will have to follow a long path to get the missiona success and a happy/satisfied customer!
Cheers,
James
Here some notes that i got about MarkV HISTORIAN IDOS :
There are several things that you will need to know to use the Historian. These things are laid out in simple form in this manual. The Historian is a VMS based system. What this means is that the commands that you will use to copy files, change directories, and manipulate data on the Historian will all be different from an IBM or DOS based system. Remember, if you ever get into trouble or feel lost in the Historian, consult the Maintenance Guide or use the Help function in the VMS system.
The list of things that follow are in sequential order and are the simple things that you will need to know to use the Historian.
1) Logging into the system - this will be necessary to do anything on the Historian so it must be done first
2) Starting the data collection - to tell the Historian to start collecting and storing the data points
3) Stopping the data collection - to tell the Historian to stop collecting and storing the data points
4) Archiving data onto tape - because the Historian has a limited amount of space on the hard drive, the data must be transferred to tape for permanent storage and to make room for new data
5) Restoring data from tape - to look at data that has been previously transferred to tape and is no longer on the hard drive or is corrupted
6) Logging off the system - this will be done when you are finished with the Historian
Indeed you will have to follow a long path to get the missiona success and a happy/satisfied customer!
Cheers,
James
Try to contact the team from this site :
https://www.amikonltd.com/general-electric_c41_4
They may have what you need...
https://www.amikonltd.com/general-electric_c41_4
They may have what you need...
Prior to the Mark V as we know it GE Salem had invested a LOT of time and money in a turbine control system operator interface that was based on DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) VAX using the VMS operating system. For a few years during Mark IV production and even for a brief time during initial Mark V production a few of these systems dribbled out into the world. But they were extremely expensive and the documentation the should have been provided by GE for configuring and using the system to operate and monitor the operation of turbines and auxiliaries was atrocious. Every one of those systems was a one-off system and required extensive hand-holding from the factory during commissioning and initial operation. There were a couple of sites who dedicated manpower to the effort and were reasonably successful with the systems but not many. Most sites muddled their way through a few years of operation and gladly changed to something else.
GE Salem also realized that while the system was full of potential it was extremely expensive and their Customer—another division of GE—wanted a system that was much less expensive and the DEC equipment wasn’t ever going to come down in price to meet their Customer’s requirement.
Fortunately (or unfortunately as many believed) IBM-compatible Personal Computers were beginning to become ubiquitous in the business world. GE Salem adopted that equipment as their new platform for the operator interface for what would become the Mark V and , again, there were a few of the DEC-based systems that leaked out in the early days of the Mark V that were sold as Historians and as remote control and monitoring systems for Mark IV and Mark V, but GE Salem management was never fully supportive of the systems and they eventually developed PC-based multi-unit operator interfaces and Historians and the DEC-based systems were left to suffer a slow and horrible death.
If ControlsGuy25 is proposing to resurrect some DEC-based Historian system for your site you will indeed have a long and twisted path to getting this equipment working and commissioned. There are probably only four or five people in the world who could say what equipment and interfaces would be necessary for such an undertaking and I doubt that most of them would be willing to invest their time and effort even with an unlimited budget and an open-ended project schedule. Such a project to resurrect or develop a Historian based on that equipment would require a lot of money and a schedule that would be capable of being extended several times. And, when finished (if ever finished), you would have a one-off system that would be so expensive and so specialized it couldn’t be sold to recoup any investment.
ControlsGuy25 is being very coy about the system and he could be sharing the GE publication number and even the full name of the DEC-based system that GE sold. It was called Smart Remote (he did allude to it) but it wasn’t (Smart, that is). It was only full of unrealized potential that some would call “vapor ware.”
There was an individual who used to lurk on this site who worked for a large old boy network in the middle USA that had some Smart Remote equipment, and if he’s still around he might have a slightly different story which would be interesting to hear. But I think in the end that equipment was replaced—without ever realizing it’s capability or potential.
There are technicians and engineers who really believed in that system and may still. My personal experience was very poor, and several of my colleagues would agree with me—unrealized potential.
Anyway, that’s all I can add to this thread. Best of luck. I would really like to know how this effort ends up in a few months or a few years. But as my days are numbered in this business I don’t think I will be around to hear the outcome.
The IBECS equipment is proven technology, if not well known. The platform software is widely used around the world and is highly respected (it’s a Canadian product). I won’t say IBECS is an “off the shelf” product but it was designed with software tools to be very quickly configured for use.
Just sayin’.
Blessed day.
GE Salem also realized that while the system was full of potential it was extremely expensive and their Customer—another division of GE—wanted a system that was much less expensive and the DEC equipment wasn’t ever going to come down in price to meet their Customer’s requirement.
Fortunately (or unfortunately as many believed) IBM-compatible Personal Computers were beginning to become ubiquitous in the business world. GE Salem adopted that equipment as their new platform for the operator interface for what would become the Mark V and , again, there were a few of the DEC-based systems that leaked out in the early days of the Mark V that were sold as Historians and as remote control and monitoring systems for Mark IV and Mark V, but GE Salem management was never fully supportive of the systems and they eventually developed PC-based multi-unit operator interfaces and Historians and the DEC-based systems were left to suffer a slow and horrible death.
If ControlsGuy25 is proposing to resurrect some DEC-based Historian system for your site you will indeed have a long and twisted path to getting this equipment working and commissioned. There are probably only four or five people in the world who could say what equipment and interfaces would be necessary for such an undertaking and I doubt that most of them would be willing to invest their time and effort even with an unlimited budget and an open-ended project schedule. Such a project to resurrect or develop a Historian based on that equipment would require a lot of money and a schedule that would be capable of being extended several times. And, when finished (if ever finished), you would have a one-off system that would be so expensive and so specialized it couldn’t be sold to recoup any investment.
ControlsGuy25 is being very coy about the system and he could be sharing the GE publication number and even the full name of the DEC-based system that GE sold. It was called Smart Remote (he did allude to it) but it wasn’t (Smart, that is). It was only full of unrealized potential that some would call “vapor ware.”
There was an individual who used to lurk on this site who worked for a large old boy network in the middle USA that had some Smart Remote equipment, and if he’s still around he might have a slightly different story which would be interesting to hear. But I think in the end that equipment was replaced—without ever realizing it’s capability or potential.
There are technicians and engineers who really believed in that system and may still. My personal experience was very poor, and several of my colleagues would agree with me—unrealized potential.
Anyway, that’s all I can add to this thread. Best of luck. I would really like to know how this effort ends up in a few months or a few years. But as my days are numbered in this business I don’t think I will be around to hear the outcome.
The IBECS equipment is proven technology, if not well known. The platform software is widely used around the world and is highly respected (it’s a Canadian product). I won’t say IBECS is an “off the shelf” product but it was designed with software tools to be very quickly configured for use.
Just sayin’.
Blessed day.
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