I want to learn mark v and was wondering if I can get help from other fellow control members to buy hardware panel I am not looking for TMR I need simplex and i believe that it should be enough for learning and teaching. Now lots of power plant have newe mark 6 and mar6e so if anyone interested in selling this old mark v panel.

 

This is going to be a very difficult endeavour. There are basically four versions of Mark V (the heavy duty gas turbine variety--I'm not including the Mark V LM in this discussion).: "A", "Hybrid A", "B", "Hybrid B". You would need to "choose" a version to "build" and then obtain the cards used in that version--not every card works in every version of Mark V.

You would also need to pay particular attention to the PROMs on the cards you obtained, so that you would end up with a uniform set of PROMs.

You would need to obtain software (the PROM subdirectory, primarily) that would run on the panel you are building.

Many people who are "switching" to Mark VIe are not replacing their Mark V panels with new panels built with Mark VIe components. GE is promoting the Mark V LE (LE for Life Extension;some GE people also call this a Mark V Migration), which replaces Mark V cards (most but not all!) with Mark VIe-compatible cards--but puts them in the same cores on the same plastic card carriers that everyone knows and loathes. Some of the cables and wire harnesses are replaced; some are not. Nothing is done to clean up the field wiring terminations in the panel. The <PD> (Power Distribution) core is not replaced during one of these Life Extensions.

So finding all of the necessary cables (and there are cable differences between the various versions of Mark V), cores, power distribution modules, etc., necessary to assemble a Mark V from various sources would be very difficult. You may spend years trying to get the proper combination of components and software.

You're also going to need some means of communicating with the Mark V--either an <I> or a GE Mark V HMI, both of which require an ARCnet card for communications. Legacy ISA-bus ARCnet cards used in <I>s are no longer available, and ones that are available are getting old and every electronic component fails eventually.

So, you're best bet would be to try to buy a whole panel from a smart site that opted to replace the Mark V with something newer (be it Mark VIe or some other turbine control system). The problem with this is that there is some pretty stiff competition for "Asset Recovery"--a politically correct term for buying panels and spare inventory and reselling them on the market. It's a lucrative market and people are willing to spend some good coin to get the printed circuit cards, PROMs, and cables, primarily. They really don't care about the cores and card carriers or the enclosures.

There are companies that seem to be devoted to prolonging the life of the Mark V (the same companies buying panels and spare parts inventories surprisingly enough!) and are offering Mark V service and training as well as parts. So, even if the OEM doesn't support the panels it seems there will be at least one company that has an interest in keeping Mark Vs in service as long as possible. (I'm referring to one of the advertisers here at control.com, Gas Turbine Controls Corporation.)

More Mark Vs were sold with new gas- and steam turbines than any other version of Speedtronic turbine control system. A lot of them have been replaced, and a lot of them have been converted to Mark Ve and Mark V LE. They aren't going to go away soon, but given that most owners/operators don't really like the Mark V and support from the OEM is falling off fast (some would say it has fallen off) they are probably going to get replaced as soon as economically feasible. Especially if someone comes up with a more cost-effective replacement.

This isn't probably what you wanted to hear, and it's only my personal opinion from nearly three decades of observation and experience. But you should consider all of the above in your plans.

I have always maintained that being a good Speedtronic technician is more than "knowing" the Mark (whatever). Sure, you need to know how to use the Speedtronic to troubleshoot, and how to calibrate LVDT feedback, but being a good technician is more about understanding the turbine and auxiliaries and what they are supposed to do, when. So many problems are wrongly attributed to the Speedtronic because people don't understand what's supposed to happen when, or, they believe the turbine (and auxiliaries) is supposed to do something it's never done--in other words, they perceive that this or that should or shouldn't be happening without really knowing (or bothering to find out) if it should or shouldn't be happening.

A good Speedtronic technician can really work on just about any version of Speedtronic because they know how the turbines and auxiliaries are supposed to operate and can determine if they are working properly or not. Many problems with printed circuit cards are the result of grounds or shorts or poor maintenance (ambient temperature; cleanliness; humidity; etc.). Sure, it helps to know about the Mark V or Mark VI or Mark IV but really, most of the problems are outside of the panel.

There's really no good way to learn turbine and auxiliary operation except by experience. The OEM doesn't even do a good job of training their field service people; the good field service people are those that dive in and learn and question and reflect. Most get experience on a variety of turbines because they move from one site to another, with different turbines and auxiliaries. Fortunately, most GE-design heavy duty gas turbines are very similar and share a lot of the same systems and field devices and instruments. But, these good field service people (true field <b>engineers</b>) didn't learn what they needed to know in any classroom or laboratory. They learned from experience. And their experience gave them good judgement, and that's what makes them good technicians and engineers. Along they way, they used some bad judgement, but that's how they got their experience--which led to better judgement. And so on.

We don't know what your situation is, what experience you have, but it's clear you want to be a better technician. Use the control.com site to ask your questions and get your answers. As said above, those field service people that excelled at their job asked a LOT of questions--some that might have been considered "dumb". But they weren't afraid to ask. Speaking from experience, sometimes it's one little thing that makes a whole system or scheme or philosophy clear to someone. One little question that may seem dumb to others, or even to the person being asked. But, when that little thing gets resolved for the person asking the question they now understand many things.

Reflection is another good quality of a good technician. Being able to take the time after a really difficult maintenance outage or re-start or troubleshooting endeavour to sit down and think about what could have been done differently to make the process smoother or what was learned while working through a problem, even if it wasn't directly related to the problem being troubleshot, is critical to developing one's knowledge and understanding. Finding that time and reflecting on the process and the outcome and the lessons learned is really important to becoming a good technician. Without it, one just fumbles from one task or problem to another. With reflection, one begins to see patterns and the bigger picture becomes clearer. One can plan and prepare for future tasks, and ask questions to get information before it's needed at 2:30 am on a Sunday morning.

Gas turbine controls are more complicated than most other turbine controls or machinery controls. That's because gas turbine control systems are more than just governors controlling the amount of fuel in proportion to some reference. In addition to being as close to a "one-button start" of any major power plant system, sequencing pumps and fans and solenoids and such as necessary to support start-up and operation and shutdown, they perform some pretty critical protection functions, too. Exhaust over-temperature; loss of flame; exhaust temperature control; combustion monitor; IGV exhaust temperature control; fuel splits and combustion mode changes for DLN combustors are just a few that come to mind.

Steam turbines aren't quite so complicated. Sure, there are rotor stress calculations, and differential expansion calculations, and for some co-generation applications there can be other control and protection functions, but they don't perform nearly the sequencing of auxiliaries that gas turbine control systems do, nor nearly the control and protection functions.

Don't confuse the Mark (whatever) with the functions it does. Any control system used to control and protect a GE-design heavy duty gas turbine has to protect against exhaust over-temperature, loss of flame, combustion trouble, control exhaust temperature, etc.--so learn those functions. Learn how the turbine operates (what's supposed to happen when). Learn how to troubleshoot alarms (What does one do when a High Atomizing Air Temperature alarm is annunciated? How does one check the Atomizing Air Temperature to verify if the switch is working correctly?). The good news is that if you learn how those things are done on a Mark V, GE didn't change them much in the Mark VI or the Mark VIe, if at all. But being a good Mark V person isn't something one should aspire to; being a good turbine controls technician is.

I think that's enough for now, don't you?

 

CSA,

I read this particular replied, made me think about what you had wrote to me personally in 2008.

I decided to join the OEM not long after received your mail. All the statement you mentioned reminding me and really contributed to my success working for OEM with many awards and gain most of the highest level in their certification program.

Anyway I am out of that OEM now. You are really the guy who has a compassionate for replying and sharing.

Thanks again CSA.

 

Thanks for the feedback!

Sounds like you received some good training, or at least made the best of the training you received.

I wish you continued success!