In my search for DCS for a new unit in TATA, I have investigated few DCS vendors - YBL, Alstom, Siemens.

Interesting to find that, in Siemens make SPPA-T1000 or TXPadd DCS, the central controller is just an Industrial PC - it is not a dedicated Siemens make integrated controller. Just a metal sticker of Siemens on it. On a site in Andhra-India, I have compared the background codes with their earlier system TME-OS220EA. (In my early career I had this system in my plant). I found that the background files are exactly the same: Siemens has only transferred the .e files in Unix to Windows .exe files platform. And from previous experience, I know that the OS220EA system is full of bugs - falls alarms, wrong Log times, drives don't work in a single click, redundancy changeover problem, time mismatch. etc. etc... Therefore SPPA-T1000 has inherited all those bugs in addition to the Windows bugs due to non-standardized platform changing.

The plant staff said the hard disk of the controller crashed several times & Siemens service guys changed a normal hard disk available in market. Now, how can a DCS controller have such a hard disk??

Also SPPA-T1000 does not comply with security norms... It's very easy to access the system files. Also, it does not comply with DCS database norms, as it has no single global database system. Logic diagram & OM database are not under same platform - it just works under telegram exchange principle, which is a practice in Engineering college final semester projects & not expected from a reputed manufacturer!!

Now, field I/Os... Siemens is using Simatic-S7 I/O modules well, but the back voltage protection in the FIMs seems to be local made. The components used are shabby.

I guess all these are the reason behind low price of Siemens DCS in India. So they have compromised with quality for bagging orders. I was shocked to know they charge a huge price for service afterwards. Pssssssssss! However, Alstom is maintaining a European standard well & YBL PLC is excellent, at least far better than Siemens's concept of so called 'DCS'. BE CAREFULL!!!

 

I would address only the hdd issue:

What else would you use? Commodity hard drives are an amazingly reliable item at an unbelievable price. Except for flash drives, I don't think there really are any alternatives. They are so good there isn't a market for hardier animals that will support the technology investment required to achieve comparable storage densities. Besides, very few disk "crashes", particularly on Windows, have anything to do with drive failure. If you don't bounce them around, they are what earlier systems designers only dreamed of. A $100 100 gb commodity drive is far more reliable than the best you could buy a decade ago.

Regards
cww

 

I have also seen this SPPA-T1000 controller in some plants - one strange thing is that the controller has different appearance and size everywhere. There is no denying that it is nothing but a PC. I don't know if you can call it an industrial PC even?? As per feedback from one plant, the controller comes from some shop in Nehru place. Becase when they have HW fault, Siemens sends a technician wform Nehru Place. And the SW running on the controller is also nothing but Windows 2000. In my recent visit, I saw a plant where Siemens supplied a new compact CPU - it is written sirug power on it. It looks very similar to CM104 module of TXP system from Siemens. If you see the label of ths controller, it says PIP6 - which I know is a model of a Swiss company making PCs. Just go to http://www.mpl.ch/t2430.html to know more. Even the part no. of the controller is not recongnised by other Siemens cos.

You're also right about those shabby termination kits which Siemens supplies with Simatic modules. I think they also come from some local co. in Pune - it is called UL Auto or somehtng like that. The plant ppl said thy don't know for sure, but Siemens' own service engineer told them this. And do you know - now Siemens has come out with some local IO modules - they are claled RX modules and they look like they were made in some college project workshp.

The HMIS - this is the weakest part of the system. And though I don't know in so much details, i think what you say regarding the sw is correct. Because os220ea and this new T1000 HMI look almost same & use the primitive concepts from the 80s.

Problem with Siemens in India is that they don't wnt to sell any system from Germany. To be fair Siemnes has excellelt DCS - first they had TXp and now thy have SPPA-T3000. I think TATA already bought this system for one plant. Both are original systems from Germany and world class. T3000 uses S7-400 controller. Even TXp is now using S7-controller--this was announced after Siemens phased out the S5 controller.

So if you relly want to buy a real DCS from Siemens, go for T3000 or tXP. But you will have to conteact Siemens in Germany. Siemens group in India does not sell these systems. They will most probaby tell you that these systems are obsolete or technically weak or supplied only for jet engines. Why they say this, I don't know. Maybe Siemens in Germany can tell you.

 

Thanks for the info regardng the sirug controller. We didnt know that siemens is even outsourcing the controller. We thought it comes from Siemens factory in Germany.

U wrote something regarding termination kits of Siemens SPPA-T1000. I can tell you that Siemens buys this item called FIM Field Interface Module from UL Automation Pune (see their website http://www.ulepl.com/productlul1.html). U can try contacting them for any spares (probably will give u for 1/100th of the price Siemens will sell for).

From our experience, never go for SPPA-T1000.It is like buying an old B&W TV that doesnt work which is put inside a new good looking chassis. Looks like great deal when u buy it, only u have to suffer the miseries later. Dont forget siemens charges exorbitantly for the services and spare parts. so if u must buy siemens, ask them to include at least 5 years spare parts, warranty and amc in the offer.

No exp. with Siemens other DCS like SPPA-T3000 or TXP, but read on internet that they are sold worldwide and customers have given excellent f/b. Can anyone provide contact in Siemens Germany for enquireis?

 

We have used SPPA T1000 DCS in one of our power plants. System is working satisfactorily. The order was given in euro portion as well as in Rupees portion. We have imported the major components like I/O modules, communication modules, controllers, networking hardware etc from Siemens Germany under EPCG license.

The controller is a very compact and envoirnment friendly. Total power consumption of controller is 25 watts. The controller provides a true redundancy. In fact you can physically remove one controller & you will observe no bump in the process. The redundant processors do not share any hardware at all unlike other DCS suppliers.

In fact Siemens has a very special algorithm for super heater temperature control. They supply this algorithms as a part of their engg s/w. With successful implementation of this algorithm even a sluggish process like a temperature control can be optimised very effectively. We have seen that the temperature control works in a very tight limits using siemens special algorithms. This has resulted in over all improvement of efficiency.

Further they have very good firmware blocks for drive controls in their engg system wherein user has to only attach the relevant command, protection & permissive signals criterias. Rest interlocking, prioritisation of on/off commands is taken care within the firmware itself.

Our BMD deptt (Boiler Maintenance Deptt) has even evaluated that the lifecycle of superheater tubes shall be effectively increased which inturn shall reduce our maintenance cost for the entire plant.

We have placed repeat order upon Siemens.

 

We are one of the major producers of ferrous & non-ferrous metals. In our plant, we have various makes of DCS installed for captive use from ABB, Yokogawa and Honeywell. Out of these systems, the cost of maintenance is very high for ABB and Yokogawa systems. After every six months, we are informed by them to order updates and upgrade softwares which are very expensive. Also the failure rate of ABB's AI module is very high, because of which we have to keep high inventory of these modules in stock. We also had to face lot of problems during order execution by ABB and Honeywell due to frequent change of project managers from their side and inexperienced manpower doing engineering and commissioning. With Yokogawa, there were frequent claims for order amendments on flimsy issues. Even for changing one tag number description Yokogawa asked us for payment.

 

If you are looking for a DCS with reliable performance, Siemens SPPA-T1000 with 'SIERUG Power' series of controllers is a good choice. But you must insist on the 'SIERUG Power' series only and it should be made in Western Europe or USA.

There are several other controller series in the Siemens range. The 'SIERUG C' is lousy while the 'SIERUG M' is only somewhat better. The 'SIERUG Power' is indeed maintenance free, rugged and reliable but very expensive. Therefore, do not fall prey to the Siemens sales guys who might try to sell you the cheaper 'SIERUG C' series of controllers.

In out installation, we replaced two pairs of 'SIERUG C' controllers with 'SIERUG Power' controllers and found a phenomenal improvement in reliability and performance.

 

We are the user of Siemens as well as Yokogawa systems. We initially installed Yokogawa CS3000 system in our plant. The problem faced by us are mainly frequent hanging of OS system and inordinate delay in switching of controller in the event of malfunction of master controller which sometimes has even resulted in tripping of the unit.

On analysis it was found that this problem was due to sharing of certain components in redundant controller. Problem is still persisting. We have also got Siemens SPPA-T1000 system which has not given any such problems till now. In SPPA-T1000 control action is very fast and in redundant pair of controller there is no sharing of any components. During the commissioning inadvertently continuous high voltage signal (415 V) got connected to one of the digital input which burnt the field termination card.

However, the good thing was the entire automation system including digital input module were saved from this major fault. Further, I want to tell that at time of order placement on Siemens, Siemens promised to give advanced control algorithms as inbuilt part of the system. This has improved plant operation and efficiency. I would recommend that if you are buying Siemens DCS, then you must ask for these logics.

S. Padmanabhan

 

Dear Friend,
It seems a very Intresting observation done on DCS vendors.

Well as a User or a Power generating company we should actually know the performance and technicalities of the system used in our plant.

Can you please elaborate more on comparison done by you on these Automation DCS vendors.

But it seems from below that YBL PLC is compared with Siemens DCS.
well it should be Siemens PLC and YBL PLC.
and Siemens DCS and YBL DCS.. Is it not?

I would also be happy if you are able to throw some more light on the European Standards to which ALSTOM conforms.

Also in case you have made comparison between Vendors. all of the readors shall be eager to know and it shall help the industry to have a correct picture....

I would really appreciate your feedback....

Thanks

 

It is very useful tips and underground information you got my friend. But Siemens PG India done very good projects and second thing it is a very good in case price is an issue. As Siemens is brand name in market and having good product in power sector

Now if we talk about SPPTA-1000 system it is absolute form of DCS concepts. Over all configuration is used for BE final year project. Application devolved with VC++ and visual basic. For every project software engineer need to develop codes to satisfy project needs.

Controller redundancy is physically their but not proven so far. It takes more then 60sec or some time more time for switchover.

It is only bcaz Siemens doing R & D works with soft controller which is not successful due to windows platform.

As far as engineering configuration software it use block but while running due to telegram concepts these block will not update with current status of plant valves. This is due to missing of packets some time

 

Dear Friend

As a former Siemens employee and now working with power plant EPC company having acquired experience in several DCS, let me share with you some more information on SPPA-T1000 DCS. SPPAT1000 is based upon Siemens Germany's controllers SIERUG-Power. The software for these controllers has mostly been developed in India.

SPPA T1000 is by far the best DCS to be developed by Siemens. It has picked up the strong points & best features of Teleperm ME & Teleperm XP systems & has combined them with the latest information technology.

SPPA T1000 is facing one big problem. Indian customers find it difficult to accept Hi-tech systems from India. They always want to use the imported systems because they still suffer from the old complex that "every thing from the west is best". Multinational competition is naturally exploiting this issue to derive advantage. Much of the criticism which you read on this web page is a consequence of this problem.

 

Mr. Murthy ,
I really don't know how long you have worked with siemens PG, I would like to know that In last couple of years How many orders SIEMENS has got for SPPA T1000 for >=500MW.

SPPA T1000 is not an open system. Today when automation industry is talking of digital buses, Wireless etc the system has no coneectivity option for these advance technology. The OS software is full of bugs.

SIRUG Power controller is also a DIN rail mountable PC, with Windows 2003 Server loaded on it as a base software. Caution: Customer should ask for Microsoft License copy for Windows 2003 server loaded in controller. This doesn't come as a defaut with controller. So If you want to safeguard yourself from IT Audit Please make it sure you get all windows licensec.

Now the days total cost of ownership for a system can be esaily devided into CAPEX and OPEX. Capex is capital expenditure done on procuring a System and OPEX include cost for AMC, SPARES, Engineer visit extra. Unfortunitly now the days customer procures a system at a low price without knowing the OPEX related with that particular system. There are few users who are using SPPA T1000 from last 3-4 years. One should talk to them to know OPEX related cost.

So we also appreciate your concern toward everything made in west is not supposed to be always best.

We also know we are behind in race of Hardware R&D. To manufacture a system compromising on quality is not justified. This is the reason general people have an apprehension that whatever made in west is best, you can not change this percepsion of general mass.

D Jha

 

Hello,

Does anybody have any materials in which comparision of T2000 and T3000 is done?
I know that T2000 is completely unix based (OM system) and that AS (automation system) is based on S5 CPUs (older version) and S7-400 CPU (newer version). I also read somwhere that T3000 is Windows based, but don't have further informations.
My email is [email protected], so if you have any materials, please send me.

Thank you very much.

 

Mr. Jha,

To answer your questions, I worked 3.5 rewarding years with Siemens. I left when I got a big jump outside. As I know, you also worked with Siemens and have now joined the competitor Emerson.

SPPA-T1000 uses SIERUG Power controller which is imported from Siemens Germany. It is not on Windows platform. It is an Open System with digital buses and seamless wireless connectivity. In fact, it is only system with proven wireless connectivity over miles of rough terrain.

In our power plant, we use this system. CAPEX was reasonable and OPEX is very low. Siemens service engineers are good with positive attitude and 24 hours available. We have not had any bugs with OM system.

SPPA-T1000 is already working in India for >500MW power plant.

Why you keep writing against Siemens? Is it pressure from new employer?

S.Murthy

 

Dear Mr. Jha/Murthy,

What are the practical experiences with SPPAT 1000??

We have ordered SPPAT-1000 recently for our
100MW power plant at Wardha near Nagpur. It is under commissioning now. Please guide me what care is to be taken as regards the software?

A K Khairkar

 

We are using three Siemens T1000 system, i would say if you want to commit sucide then buy these system. That simple PC (they call it a controller) gets crashed every now and then, it is bought from a company called Apollo Computers, Nehru Place, New Delhi and the FIMS are from UL Automation, Pune.

If you look into Isolation aspects these FIMS fail miserably. Analog Cards dont have Channel to channel isolation or Siemens India dont want to sell these products. Problems of SMPS failure are so common that i feel even a commercial PC would have performed better. The software SoftAS on controller is full of Bugs even Siemens don't know what to do with it. False alarms/ Trippings are even generated from the system for it they load a Profibus patch.

SoftOm the HMI is another issue, drawing a simple graphic and allocating tags needs making from two different locations/sub-programs. Drawing a simple page is also difficult and the affect is hopeless.

Apart from all this if something will for sure be the worst part it's the MIS reports. It's like the pages we make in computer Lab in class five. One more issue for earthing they ask for 95 Sqmm Copper cable that too four lengths, its bigger than the size if ID Fan power cable for small plants.

You ask for calculations from them and see how they react. Even Siemens Germany also dont wants to enter in the T1000 case. Engineering is total mess you have to lot of [juggling] to make a simple program, Counters, totaliser are not the standard block and they dont have global database you have to crack your head with Tellgram numbers and still they call it a DCS. Sierug-Power is nothing better. Its better to go for a PCS7 Plc than going for this system. The thing which surprises me that Siemens Germany is also not taking any action. I would advice for god sake never buy Siemens India products their so called DCS.

Even after this they sell it and when you call them for service they fight the case as if they have supplied the best system of the world, never accepting that the system really has a problem. Its a shame on the part of Siemens that they are selling such a useless product. And the cherry at the top of such a beautiful cake they take AMC worth INR 13 Lacs per system and what they do, come twice in a year do blowering job and say Goodbye.

 

Dear Sir

I have the practical experience, it fails like a Simple PC, I can you atleast five contact numbers of different companies automation heads who have first hand experience on this particular system and at all places the system failed. One of the user is on the verge of scrapping this system. You have an attachment with the company with whom you have worked but the system which is bad should be accepted as Bad. A few months back siemens has done a feedback session why this product is failing in market and why their repute is at stake. I hope this clarifies the performance of the system.

Please never buy T1000.

 

Mr. Raj,

We are using SPPA-T1000 in our power plant and it is working satisfacorily without even a single problem since its commissioning 14 months back. In fact, among all the system we have used we have found this system to be most stable and reliable. Therefore, we do not understand why anybody should commit "Suicide" for using this system.

Also, the eagerness of Siemens to serve its customer is far superior than any other company.

 

I would have welcomed some technical aspects instead of harsh and baseless criticism.

 

I am surprised at the observations here because I was the project manager for this project during my tenure with Siemens. The customer has received an excellent technical system but due to contractual problems the project was temporarily stopped and thereby delayed. The customer has a financial problem and was not able to make payments in time which forced us in Siemens to stop the work. Even though I am no longer with Siemens, it is painful to note that the customer has started blaming the technical features of the system just to divert attention from his own financial problems.

Given below is some factual information -
a) SPPA-T1000 uses controllers from Siemens AG range and not commercial/industrial PCs.
b) SIERUG Power is a controller manufactured at Siemens Germany works. It is imported by Siemens Ltd. India
c) Apollo computers, Nehru Place is a service centre for minor repairs of HMI hardware.
d) UL Automation, Pune is a technically sound company and manufactures good quality products. It also has a collaboration with a major German company.
e) SoftOM (HMI) is based upon easy engineering principles. The problem with this customer is that all his people whom Siemens trained have left. Therefore, the customer is not able to either understand or maintain the system himself. Simple operations like generating MIS reports are also not handled by the customer properly because of shortage of knowledgeable manpower.
f) Siemens AG recommends worldwide use of minimum 70 sq. mm copper cable for earthing. This is in line with proper earthing principles and most of Siemens' competitors follow Siemens guidelines for installation and earthing.
g) Users will agree that charging Rs.13 lacs ($28,000/-) for annual maintenance is not high. It is incorrect to say the service engineer does only a blowing job. Customer depends upon Siemens for all maintenance issues.